Seòmar agus comataidhean

That positive note concludes the committee’s questions. I thank the Auditor General, Graeme Greenhill and Pat Kenny for joining us to give their evidence and insights into the progress that has been made with Bòrd na Gàidhlig.

I draw the item to a close and suspend the meeting briefly.

Welcome back to the first meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2022. In this part of our deliberations, we will receive evidence on a recently completed Audit Scotland report into NHS Highland. I am delighted to welcome to give evidence the Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle—welcome back. In this session, Stephen is joined by Leigh Johnston, who is a senior manager for performance audit and best value at Audit Scotland. I am also pleased to extend a welcome to Joanne Brown, who is a partner at Grant Thornton and has been working on the audit.

I invite the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.

Thank you. I am extremely sorry, but we have run out of time in this evidence session. There is quite a lot to follow up on, not least the points that Joanne Brown was addressing just now.

I take the opportunity once again to thank you, Joanne, for your time and your evidence, which has been illuminating. I thank Leigh Johnston for her input, as always, and I thank Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General, for his work on this area.

I am sure that we will return to many of the themes that we have discussed today, not least in the light of the overall NHS Scotland audit report that Audit Scotland will produce next month. I bring the public part of the meeting to a close.

We will move on to look in a bit more depth at the board’s financial management. Craig Hoy will pose a number of questions to probe that.

If Graeme Greenhill or Pat Kenny want to come in at any point, they should put an R in the chat box—although I am sure that the Auditor General will bring them in.

Often, what is critical in an organisation is not simply that it makes a change, but that it keeps change going. One of the things that I note from the report is that the board appointed an external change management expert in 2021-22 to

“embed its developing approach to continuous improvement and maintain the pace of change”,

which really relates to my point. Is the appointment of that external change management expert permanent? If so, what should they prioritise in the months and years ahead?

Thank you—that is useful.

I turn to Sharon Dowey, who has a series of questions on the theme of the cost pressures that are demonstrated in the audit report on NHS Highland.

Thank you, Willie.

Auditor General, you are absolutely right to talk about the human dignity and respect that are at the centre of the Sturrock report and recommendations. I want to look at the overall cost and some of the nuts and bolts of that. Do you have any indication of how many further recommendations for financial payments there are likely to be? Could you clarify who is footing the bill for that? Is the funding coming from the health board itself, or is any additional Scottish Government funding being made available? Could you, Joanne Brown or Leigh Johnston shed any light on what the division is between the value of the compensation payments that have been made and the cost and administration of the process?

Could you begin by addressing those points, Stephen?

Thank you, convener. I appreciate the opportunity to ask my questions this morning.

As Karen Adam said, the strike was a defining moment in modern Scottish history and ensuring that we get the legislation right will be a defining moment for the Scottish Parliament.

I was old enough to be around during the miners strike. I was living in Stirling at the time and the Polmaise colliery was one of the flashpoints that precipitated the national strike.

I want to make a couple of points, if I may, convener. Bob Young introduced himself as the NUM chairman at Comrie, Alex Bennett introduced himself as the NUM chairman at Monktonhall, and Nicky Wilson, now the president of the union, was also very active. We need to understand that it was a clear attempt to decapitate the leadership of the union. That must be recognised in our approach to what happened and what we need to do now.

Alex spoke about his own experience. In preparation for today, I read the testimony of Cathy Mitchell from Kirkcaldy, because the families as well as the miners themselves were affected by what happened. She talked about her husband John, who was blacklisted and convicted of obstruction in 1984 and fined £5, which resulted in him losing out on a £26,000 redundancy payment from the Frances colliery. [Richard Leonard has corrected this contribution. See end of report.] The challenges were very real and that is why it is perfectly legitimate for us to look at compensation. Clear financial hardship and detriment were caused. I hope that we will address that in the course of our deliberations in the Parliament.

I will put my question to Nicky Wilson. One of the arguments that people have made against compensation is that we no longer live in an age where there is a unitary UK Government because we have devolution, so why should the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament be in any way responsible for what happened back then?

There is now a Scottish Parliament and there is no longer a Scottish Office—there is a Scotland Office. We no longer have eight police forces—there is just one. The National Coal Board does not exist in the way that it did. My question to Nicky is this: does that mean that an apology is impossible and that financial compensation could not be met?

Richard Leonard has identified an error in his contribution and provided the following correction.

At col 20, paragraph 9—

Original text—

She talked about her husband John, who was blacklisted and convicted of obstruction in 1984 and fined £5, which resulted in him losing out on a £26,000 redundancy payment from the Frances colliery.

Corrected text—

She talked about her husband John, who was blacklisted and convicted of obstruction in 1984 and fined £50, which resulted in him losing out on a £27,000 redundancy payment from the Frances colliery.

I again thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask a couple of brief questions.

Language is extremely important, and the choice of words in this session has struck me. Jim McBrierty, you used the expression “infiltrators”. I presume that you do not consider Nicky Wilson, Alex Bennett and Bob Young to be “infiltrators”. How many of the 400-odd convicted miners that we are talking about would you classify as “infiltrators”?

The language that Tom Wood used, which I have heard him use before, really resonated. Tom, I think that you spoke about the coal board exercising extrajudicial punishment that you considered to be spiteful, disproportionate, excessive and so on, with people who committed minor breach of the peace offences being subsequently sacked and blackballed.

In those circumstances, what do you think that the most appropriate remedy is? You spoke about the lives that were changed, the lives that were lost and the course of people’s destinies being changed by that simple act, which you described as extrajudicial punishment. In those circumstances, do you not think that there is at least a case for some form of compensation to be paid to people?