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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
I take you back to Sharon Dowey’s initial question on the practice of conferring with the clerks on areas that the corporate body considers that committees should scrutinise office-holders on. Did that take place in session 5—yes or no?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
I will bring Willie Coffey back in later, but I will now switch to Craig Hoy.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
I am not sure that the committee believes in coincidences, Mr Williams, but we are keen to be kept abreast of the progress that you are making, because that was an important recommendation in the Auditor General’s report.
Willie Coffey has another couple of questions before I turn to, last but not least, Colin Beattie.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
On that constructive suggestion by the committee to our witnesses, I draw this evidence session to a close. I thank Maggie Chapman, David McGill and Huw Williams for being prepared to come to committee this morning to answer the questions that we had and respond to what has, by common consent, been a very difficult situation that has raised some pretty fundamental questions about the governance structures and whether they need to be reformed.
As I said, we are a committee that is principally concerned with outcomes and not necessarily with reviews. We will discuss our next steps, but I am sure that we will be keeping a close eye on the issue to understand how effectively any changes that you have heralded are implemented. I thank the witnesses once again for their time this morning.
10:57 Meeting continued in private until 11:40.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
We have two items of public evidence gathering on our agenda. The first is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, “National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”.
Our witnesses from Audit Scotland, who are in the committee room, are Antony Clark, executive director, performance audit and best value, and Anne Cairns, manager, performance audit and best value. We have some questions to put to the witnesses, but, before we get to those, I ask Antony to make a short opening statement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
We have some more questions on that subject. Colin Beattie wants to follow up on that line of questioning.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
Thanks for that helpful clarification.
You have said that the amount of fraud identified in the exercise was slightly down on that identified in 2020, which was when the exercise was last undertaken. Do you see that as a sign of success in that there is growing public awareness, or as a sign of failure in that more fraud has gone undetected?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
So it is not something that you would prescribe in the job advertisement and the job description for people applying for the post. I have not looked at the advert. Does it say “You will be the accountable officer”, “You might be the accountable officer” or “You might not be the accountable officer”?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
Can I infer from that that your expectation is that the new postholder will be the accountable officer?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 September 2022
Richard Leonard
Okay. Thank you.