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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 September 2025
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Displaying 3314 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the second meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee.

The first item on our agenda is to decide whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. I assume that all members agree to do so, unless any member indicates otherwise. Does any member object to taking agenda items 4 and 5 in private?

I see no objections, so that is agreed.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, Paul. If you want members of your team to field any of the questions, please let us know who the appropriate person is. If members of your team want to come in, they should type R in the chat function to make sure that I call them.

I will give a bit of context to this morning’s session. A section 22 report by Audit Scotland is quite a serious matter; it happens when alarm bells have been or still are ringing. This morning, we want to probe a little into the journey that you have been on and to consider how things look over the next few weeks because, as you said, the census has still to be delivered.

I will start by reflecting on the second paragraph of the Audit Scotland report, which contains this note from the Auditor General:

“I have prepared this report to draw the Scottish Parliament’s attention to the challenges facing NRS in the delivery of the census programme. This includes the significant impact the decision to delay the census until March 2022 has had on NRS’s costs. There are also ongoing risks to delivery of the programme, including resourcing and financial pressures, which NRS will need to continue to manage so that the census can be delivered successfully in line with the revised budget and timetable.”

Committee members will return to those themes over the next hour.

I want to reflect on the evidence session that we had with the Auditor General on 9 December 2021. You might have seen that one of the issues that were brought to our attention was that an options appraisal report led you, through evidence, I presume, to the decision—or the recommendation to ministers for their decision—to postpone the census for a year. That was a very big decision to make. We asked the Audit Scotland representatives whether they had had sight of the options appraisal report. They might have had sight of it, but they were not in a position to offer it to us. Would it be possible for the committee to see the full options appraisal report?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

I am sorry to interrupt, but I want to check something. We were told in the evidence session with Audit Scotland that you were now planning to access some of those data sharing sources. Are you saying that you have not done that or that you have no legal basis for doing it, and that it is not happening?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you for clearing that up.

I must ask you to try to keep your answers a little briefer. I suspect that you will be able to do that in the forthcoming sections. Again, please feel free to bring in members of your team if you think that they can add useful evidence to the gathering of information that we are embarked on.

I invite Craig Hoy to ask a number of questions.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 13 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everybody to the first meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee.

The first item on our agenda is consideration of whether to take in private agenda items 4 and 5. My working assumption is that everybody will agree to do that, but if anybody disagrees, please indicate that by raising your hand.

I do not see any raised hands, so the committee agrees to take in private items 4 and 5.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of NHS Highland”

Meeting date: 13 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much for that opening statement, Stephen. As you will understand, we have a number of questions on everything from the implications of the Sturrock report and the progress that has been made in addressing the issues identified in it to the funding formula and the recurring challenges faced by a health board that is operating in the most rural part of Scotland and delivering services that need to be accessible, as far as possible, to the population that it serves.

I will start by turning to paragraph 14, which is on page 5 of the report. It reminds us that NHS Highland moved down from level 4 to level 3 in the escalation framework. At face value, that is a positive development. Will you summarise the improvements that have been made, as you understand it, which have led to the de-escalation of the health board’s status? In so doing, will you give any assessment that you have of whether the board is moving in the direction of going down from level 3 to level 2? Are there still bigger challenges to overcome? I ask Stephen Boyle to open up on the evidence on that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Bòrd na Gàidhlig”

Meeting date: 13 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much for the opening statement. I have a couple of questions to ask, before I invite questions from other members of the committee.

It is worth recapping where things were back in 2018-19. The conclusions of the 2018-19 report spoke about

“ineffective leadership, inadequate workforce planning, a lack of clarity over roles and responsibilities and poor relationships and organisational culture”,

which existed to such an extent that, in giving evidence to the Public Audit Committee’s predecessor committee, the auditor said:

“In terms of the findings and recommendations, I cannot think of another report that has raised such serious issues during my time in this role.”—[Official Report, Public Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee, 16 January 2020; c 21.]

That is a pretty damning indictment of how things were.

When we turn to the report that has just been published, we see that there appears to have been a considerable turnaround. My first question is this: what has been the catalyst for such a transformative difference in the organisation?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Bòrd na Gàidhlig”

Meeting date: 13 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Openness and transparency were previously identified as issues back in 2018-19, so that is a continuing area of interest for us.

My final question goes back to the 72 actions that came out of the recommendations, which the Auditor General mentioned. Of the 72, 71 have been implemented. However, the nature of the beast that is the Public Audit Committee being what it is, I want to ask about the 72nd action, which has not so far been implemented. Can someone explain why there has been a hold-up with it? Is it simply a matter of timing; is it contingent on other issues? What is the reason? I ask so that we have a better understanding of the outstanding action.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Bòrd na Gàidhlig”

Meeting date: 13 January 2022

Richard Leonard

We have more questions on engagement, which will come up later in the evidence session. Colin Beattie has questions about board scrutiny.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of NHS Highland”

Meeting date: 13 January 2022

Richard Leonard

We want to further interrogate the board’s financial position in terms of not only its management but its sustainability.