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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 31 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

This is bringing back lots of memories for me of meetings with the Scottish Grocers Federation, visiting glass manufacturers in Ayrshire and so on, but that was some time ago.

Stuart McMillan will now put some questions to you about the broader environment that you operate in.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everybody to the 21st meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee.

Agenda item 1 is for the committee to decide whether to take items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

The second item on our agenda is further consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report on the Scottish National Investment Bank. I am pleased to welcome our two witnesses. We are joined by Al Denholm, the chief executive of the Scottish National Investment Bank, and alongside him is Willie Watt, who chairs the Scottish National Investment Bank.

We have some questions to put to both of you based on the Audit Scotland report. Before we get to our questions, Mr Watt, I invite you to give us a short opening statement.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Annual Report and Accounts for the year to 31 March 2025 and Auditor’s Report on the Accounts

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

We accept, as a commission, that it is not a fixed-fee model and there is not necessarily a capped regime in place, but 21 per cent is quite a big variance, is it not? Given the institutional knowledge that exists in Audit Scotland and your familiarity with the mixed-market approach, when we are asked to approve a budget, we expect that to be more or less the same as the actual spend. I hear what you say, Ms Bibby, about particular cases and so on, but as a rule of thumb, I might expect the variance to be 5 per cent or a single-digit variance from the budget, but this is 21 per cent. That is of fairly large magnitude.

My second question is whether, among the six firms, there are particular firms that have charged significantly more in the audit work that they have been doing.

Meeting of the Commission

“Quality of public audit in Scotland: Annual report 2024/25”

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I have a couple of questions on audit delays. Paragraph 20 of the report tells us that 91 audits are delayed. In fact, when I look at it in a bit more detail, it tells me that 91 audits are late and “not making progress”, so they are not just delayed but stuck, it seems to me. I wonder whether you can address that. Can you also address this point? This is probably an unfair way of framing it but, if I could be simple in my approach, at the start of the report you talk about between 233 and 253 audits being completed; if there are 91 delayed audits, that is a ratio of between 35 to almost 40 per cent of audits that are delayed or “late and not making progress”. That is a huge proportion, is it not?

Meeting of the Commission

“Quality of public audit in Scotland: Annual report 2024/25”

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Perhaps I can finish where I started, by going back to your figures, which say that 91 audits are late—or, to use Mr Smith’s terminology, “not making progress” according to his yardstick. However, you also give us a breakdown that, of those 91 cases, 46 are late due to the auditor, 27 are due late to the body that is being audited and 18 are late in circumstances that are “beyond the control of either”. Again, that is your explanation. I am not quite sure what “beyond the control of either” means. How can something be beyond the control of either the auditor or the public body that is being audited? That baffles me.

Meeting of the Commission

“Quality of public audit in Scotland: Annual report 2024/25”

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I am sorry—that just reminds me of the narrative that we get on Ferguson Marine, which is that to get the Glen Sannox afloat we have to jeopardise progress on the Glen Rosa, through retrofitting parts from the Glen Rosa on to the Glen Sannox so that at least that vessel is afloat. However, what you described does not solve the problem of what is happening with the public body whose audit is being considerably delayed and jeopardised, does it? I understand that that is the way of working. The reason that I am making facial expressions is because it just reminds me of what we get told on other aspects of audit.

Meeting of the Commission

“Quality of public audit in Scotland: Annual report 2024/25”

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I could continue, chair, but I do not think that time permits so I will pass back to you.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Annual Report and Accounts for the year to 31 March 2025 and Auditor’s Report on the Accounts

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I want to continue to look at your “year in figures” table and turn attention to the fees and expenses that are paid to external firms. You have, for a long time, operated a mixed-market approach to public audit in Scotland, so you outsource about a third of public audits to be carried out by private companies. We approved a budget for the last financial year of £7.7 million, but the table shows that the actual spend was almost £9.5 million. That is a rise of 21 per cent in one year, compared to the budget. Can you explain that?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Annual Report and Accounts for the year to 31 March 2025 and Auditor’s Report on the Accounts

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Might you come back next year and share with us another quite big variance in the fees paid, compared to the budget that has been set?