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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Mr Hoy, I fear that you veered into an area of policy and ideology there, which is certainly not the remit of this committee.

Auditor General, this is a debate that the whole Parliament is going to engage in over the next few years, but I think that you have made the point repeatedly this morning, as well as in the briefing, that there are some urgent issues that need to be addressed alongside the Parliament’s deliberations on the reform of the system.

You also mentioned your interest, which we share, about what happened to the £500 million cash injection and how much of it went into social care commissioning. If you get to the bottom of that, we would appreciate your sharing that with us, because we are anxious to track where the money has gone.

We also heard about skills development and about the innovative things that Edinburgh College shared with us in a round-table discussion that the committee held late last year. Next week, we will have the director general for education and justice giving evidence on the planning for skills agenda. We clearly have quite a lot of shared interests. What is going on in the care sector is absolutely central to what is happening in the planning for skills work that the Scottish Government is leading on.

I thank Antony Clark and Shelagh Stewart, who joined us online this morning, and, as always, I thank you, Auditor General, for producing the briefing and answering our questions on it.

10:19 Meeting continued in private until 11:34.  

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is consideration of the “Social care briefing” that the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission published at the end of January. I welcome committee member Willie Coffey, who joins us remotely. We are joined in the committee room by Stephen Boyle—welcome, Auditor General—and remotely by his team: Antony Clark, who is interim director of performance audit and best value at Audit Scotland; and Shelagh Stewart, who is audit manager in performance audit and best value at Audit Scotland. You are both welcome.

I say to Antony, Shelagh and Willie that, if you would like to come in at any point, please put an R in the chat box function and we will endeavour to bring you in. I am quite sure that the Auditor General may well defer to Antony and Shelagh to provide some of the evidence that we will be looking for.

I invite the Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

That is fine. Thank you very much.

We have mentioned the social care workforce a few times already. Willie Coffey, who is joining us remotely, has some questions on that.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Antony Clark wants to come in on that point. I invite him to give some views before Willie Coffey asks his next question.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thanks. Antony Clark wants to come in on that point, too.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Yes, that is very useful. We have more questions about commissioning. There is a debate about whether the current commissioning model is the best one. It seems to be quite top down, and I am not sure that the voice of users is heard sufficiently loudly in it. However, that will be part of the debate that we will have in Parliament about the creation of a national care service. It will also address some of the more urgent points on which you have asked us to push.

The briefing also mentions the Social Care (Self-directed Support) (Scotland) Act 2013, which provided for self-directed support. The previous Auditor General, along with the Accounts Commission, produced a report in 2017 that concluded that the vision of self-directed support had not been fully implemented. How much further on are we? How would you describe the status of implementation of self-directed support?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 24 February 2022

Richard Leonard

I will move on in a second, but I underline the fact that it is a quadrupling, within the space of a year, of the assessment of the exposure to risk. If that was my personal financial situation, I would be alarmed at such an increase in my expected or assessed exposure to financial risk. Is the Scottish Government not alarmed by the quadrupling of that exposure?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 24 February 2022

Richard Leonard

To move things along, I invite Craig Hoy to ask some questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 24 February 2022

Richard Leonard

There has also been considerable public interest in another one of the Government’s financial arrangements—the one with the Gupta Family Group Alliance. The Audit Scotland report focuses on the Lochaber aluminium smelter deal. What is the Scottish Government’s total financial exposure in relation to that deal?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 February 2022

Richard Leonard

There are other circumstances in which a valuation might be applied prior to a change of ownership. That has happened in the past. With ScotRail, for example, where the ownership of the franchise is changing, would you expect some kind of fixed asset register to be provided on the transfer date, so that the Scottish Government, in taking on the assets, would know what Abellio was handing over to it?