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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 September 2025
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Displaying 3340 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

I am conscious of the time, Colin. I am keen to bring in two members of the committee before we finish up.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

I will take you back to some evidence that we heard from the Auditor General about correspondence on 8 and 9 October 2015 that took place between your predecessor as chief executive of Transport Scotland and Government ministers. An email from Transport Scotland reflected Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd’s concerns about the award of the contract to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd. The board of CMAL went so far as to say:

“The Board feel it is their absolute duty to point out the risk to their shareholder and in that respect would expect approval, should SG wish this project to proceed, and to receive direction to that effect”.

The next day, a reply was submitted to Erik Østergaard from the director of aviation, maritime, freight and canals—your predecessor, Fran Pacitti. Transport Scotland used the word “authorised” in relation to CMAL being able

“to enter into the Contracts and any associated documentation.”

At the bottom of that letter, it says:

“I confirm that the Scottish Ministers have considered and approved the contents of this letter.”

One of the issues that are at stake is whether written authority from ministers was sought and secured but not recorded or whether the correspondence does not constitute that at all. Mr Brannen, will you address that point?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay, but in light of the view of CMAL, which also reports directly to the ministerial team, why do you not think that it was asking for written authority?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

My final question, Roy Brannen, is to ask whether it was in your gift to advise ministers to terminate the contract. If it was, did it cross your mind to do that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

You kind of recused Transport Scotland from that, but, as the accountable officer, you gave advice at the end of April 2017—it is among the 200-odd documents that are now in the public domain—in which you said that, if flexibility on the surety bond were to be introduced, you would require written authority for that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

I begin by putting a question to Roy Brannen and Hugh Gillies, but I will take you first, Mr Brannen. You mentioned current and previous roles. You have both held the post of designated accountable officer for Transport Scotland, so can you outline what is required in that role in providing formal advice to ministers and recording decisions, particularly where significant concerns or risks are involved?

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Willie Coffey has related questions.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

I understand that from an operational point of view, and I know that you cannot speak on matters of policy, but is it not matter of Government policy that it wishes those contracts to be brought back into the public sector, or have I misunderstood that?

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

That is helpful. In addition to the information that you have agreed to supply to the committee following the questions that Colin Beattie, for example, asked, it would be useful if you could furnish us with a copy of your 2020 guidance. If you are in a position to supply us with the current policy guidance that you receive as civil servants and the plans that you have, that would be helpful. We understand that there are a multitude of different contracts and different exit arrangements and so on, but to the extent to which you can furnish us with the information that allows us to get an overview of where things are, that would be helpful.

I am sorry that we have run out of time, and I appreciate that you have given us an undertaking to provide some of the evidence that we are looking for in writing. That is very helpful. Thank you for coming in to give us the benefit of your insight into how the governance arrangements are working on these major capital projects.

I draw the public part of the meeting to an end.

11:15 Meeting continued in private until 11:44.  

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 15th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. The first agenda item is a decision on whether to take items 2 and 4 in private. Do we agree to do that?

Members indicated agreement.