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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 November 2025
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Displaying 3464 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Social security: Progress on implementing the devolved benefits”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed for that opening statement. You mentioned the minister in your opening comments. Rather unusually, the minister wrote an unsolicited letter to the committee on 19 May, in which he set out his response to the report, using expressions including

“significant progress”,

“the scale of what we have achieved”,

“a very substantial achievement”,

“the Scottish Government is preparing well”,

“the recommendations that Audit Scotland have highlighted are areas we had already identified and were working on prior to receipt of this report”,

“things are demonstrably working”,

and

“we have got robust processes”

In and among all that, do you think that there is a recognition of the scale of the challenges that you identify in the report and which you mentioned in your opening statement, and a recognition that substantial risks remain—not least, for example, that of getting operational staffing in place? Can you comment on what you see as the position of Social Security Scotland and the Scottish Government on that? Do you think that they fully recognise the challenges that lie ahead?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Social security: Progress on implementing the devolved benefits”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Looking to the future and reflecting on the past, what do you think have been the critical factors that allowed for the reasonably successful start to the work of Social Security Scotland?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We move to item 2 on the agenda. The first of our evidence sessions this morning is on two reports that were produced by the Auditor General.

Our four witnesses are in the room for the first evidence session. I am pleased to welcome Stephen Boyle, Auditor General for Scotland, and, from Audit Scotland, Richard Robinson, senior manager; Martin McLauchlan, audit manager, performance audit and best value; and Ashleigh Madjitey, audit manager.

I invite the Auditor General to give us a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 19th meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2022. Under item 1, does the committee agree to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you for that introduction. The watchword this morning might well be “transparency”.

I will ask the first question. What were the criteria for allocation between the different funds? Have you been able to establish why certain funds were of a certain value and others were of a different value? What work have you done to establish whether those funds were value for money?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I am not sure that it is that keen if that undertaking was given three months ago and it still has not been fulfilled, but the committee can take a view on that.

It is not unusual for you to sit before us and talk about a lack of good-quality data. Looking at the reports that are before us today, it seems to me that that is really what you are saying again. Given the investigations that you have already conducted, how confident are you that we will get the good-quality data that allows for the transparency that we all want to see?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I have one final question. There are examples of companies that have taken millions in furlough money—I know that that support is reserved to the UK—but have also taken millions in Government compensation towards their fixed costs. I see that in the same financial year, those companies that are taking that significant amount of public money are also paying out substantial dividends to shareholders or doubling their directors’ pay. Some of those companies are registered in tax havens. Were any of those things taken into consideration in drafting the criteria for who was eligible for Government support?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Craig Hoy has some more questions about fraud.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

On that point, do we know the number of jobs that were lost as a result of 5.4 per cent of private sector businesses ceasing to operate? I take it that that is a net figure. Do we know yet what sectors those jobs were in?