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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 September 2025
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Displaying 3314 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

And the minister was able to wave that bit of paper in Parliament in the afternoon of 11 May.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. In his evidence, Roy Brannen made clear that he felt that the gap had been filled, but Audit Scotland’s position is that it was not filled—and that is not just a matter of record keeping or a bit of paper; it is about the whole approach and it is about transparency.

Let me pick up on another issue. Fran Pacitti, the documents that you found on 11 May tell us a little about who was involved in the decision-making process. Mr Brannen told us on 26 May that it was

“entirely a decision for the transport minister.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 26 May 2022; c 6.]

However, we can see from the correspondence of 8 and 9 October that you unearthed that the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities, Keith Brown, was copied into emails. The last word in that series of emails belongs to the Deputy First Minister, who was clearly an active player in the decision; a report of his comments was in an email that was sent at a quarter past 5 on 9 October. How do you reconcile that with the comment that the decision was entirely for the transport minister? Perhaps Hugh Gillies will answer that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay, but other people in ministerial positions were copied into the emails. They were part of the email conversation. What do you say to that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

But what do you say, Mr Gillies?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

That is 11 May. You found that document on the morning of 11 May.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. I am sure that people will draw their own conclusions from that.

I will ask about the bit of paper. The reason I asked you what you were asked to look for, Fran Pacitti, is that there is simply a dispute about what the bit of paper constitutes. The Audit Scotland report clearly said in its key messages:

“There is insufficient documentary evidence to explain why Scottish ministers accepted the risks and were content to approve the contract award in October 2015.”

In paragraph 28 of the report, Audit Scotland says:

“We consider that there should have been a proper record of this important decision.”

Do you think that that is what you found?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Mr Gillies, you are free to come in at any point in this exchange. I have to say that Transport Scotland’s view is different from that of Audit Scotland.

Another point to consider is that paragraph 5.1.9 of annex 1 to the Scottish public finance manual says that it is the duty of an accountable officer to

“ensure that risks, whether to achievement of business objectives, regularity, propriety or value for money, are identified, that their significance is assessed and that systems appropriate to the risks are place in all relevant areas to manage them”.

Does such a document exist?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Fran Pacitti, can you tell me who Alexander Anderson is—or was in October 2015?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I think that we understand that; we are trying to get to the bottom of who was involved in the decision.

I will move things along and ask Colin Beattie to put some questions to the witnesses.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I know that Mr Brannen is a roads and highways man—civil engineering and all that. Did he have something against ferries? If big road contracts were put through that process of scrutiny, why would a ferries contract to the value of £97 million of public money—we now know that it is likely to be of the value of £0.25 billion—not have been put through that process?