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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Again, that seems to be rather at odds with the conclusion that was drawn by Audit Scotland that Transport Scotland had some oversight responsibility for the procurement process. Last time, we heard the mantra from Mr Brannen that it was all about buyer and builder, but this is public money. As an accountable officer, do you not have some accountability for how that money is spent?

09:30  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I will put to you a final point, which relates to whether the First Minister was involved, whether through a special adviser or directly or indirectly. In his evidence last time, Mr Brannen was quite clear—it is a pity that he is not here today—that there was no involvement whatsoever of the First Minister, and we accept him at his word. If that is the case, will you give us your understanding of why, when the First Minister was questioned on 29 March by Glenn Campbell of the BBC about whether it was on her say so, and he asked her,

“Did you say ‘go ahead’?”,

her reply was,

“I didn’t say don’t go ahead”?

Why would she not just give an unequivocal Roy Brannen answer and say, “No, I was not involved”?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I thank Willie Coffey for his questions. I turn to Craig Hoy, who will pick up on the same theme, so Mo Rooney might be able to come in in response to his questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I have a couple of final questions before the evidence session ends, which go back to our previous evidence session with Transport Scotland. I think that Fran Pacitti addressed the issue at the time, and I am interested in hearing Hugh Gillies’s view. We were told that all port, harbour and ferry infrastructure projects now go through the investment decision-making board at Transport Scotland. Back in 2015, what was the value threshold that meant that the two vessels did not go through that process?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Do you expect that he was talking about financial issues, procurement issues, things that might have been subject to challenge or political issues? What do you think?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Willie Coffey, as I mentioned at the start of the meeting, joins us via videolink. He has a number of questions on nationalisation.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Mr Cook. I am conscious of the fact that Mr Gillies is an accountable officer. It might be that we will go directly to Mr Gillies on some of our areas of questioning.

First of all, I invite the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

While we are on the subject of documentary evidence, at our meeting on 26 May, there was some discussion about what Mr Brannen kept referring to as “the bit of paper”. In his evidence, he said:

“with further investigation by Fran Pacitti and the records team it”—

the paperwork—

“turned up … I accept that, on that occasion, that one bit of paper was not easy to find, but we did find it … Now that we have the bit of paper that explains that the minister accepted that, that is the totality of that exchange.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 26 May 2022; c 7, 8.]

Fran Pacitti, what were you asked to look for and who asked you to look for it?

09:15  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Do you think that that is what you found?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

That is not the view of Audit Scotland. Even after the discovery of 11 May and the publication that you were able to make, Audit Scotland said:

“The email confirms that ministers approved the award of the FMEL contract. But there remains insufficient documentary evidence to explain why the decision was made to proceed with the contract, given the significant risks and concerns raised by CMAL.”

Notwithstanding what you have said, Audit Scotland’s view is quite different, is it not?