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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 September 2025
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Displaying 3340 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome to the 20th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is a decision on taking business in private. Do members agree to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I should have said, Mr Shackman—my mistake—I introduced you as being from the Scottish Government. You are in fact employed by Transport Scotland.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Can I follow up some of those lines of questioning from Sharon Dowey? I go back to the point about written authority or not written authority, and the difference between instruction from your sole shareholder and written authority. To all intents and purposes, it was equivalent, was it not, because your advice was being overridden?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Mr Østergaard, do you want to come in at this point?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Mr Østergaard, in one biography that I have read about you, when you were appointed to the board of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, you were described as possessing

“extensive experience with a number of European shipping concerns in a career that has spanned over 30 years in shipping.”

Have you ever known a ship to be built without a builder’s refund guarantee?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

In the context of what we have heard this morning and what we have seen in the written submission, did you at any point consider resigning as chair of CMAL?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

That was evidence that we heard from Jim McColl, who said that he had been in a private meeting with Derek Mackay, which the civil servants had been asked to leave, when he was told that there was what he described as a legal letter from the board of CMAL threatening resignation en masse.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Again, just for the record, Mr Østergaard, neither did you, as chair of the board, notwithstanding the very strong terms of the email that you sent on 26 September, in the afternoon, saying, quite starkly:

“In my opinion the best option would be to bin the present result and start from scratch on the basis of our initial requirements”.

Those are quite strong terms, are they not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We have an attachment in an email that was sent to ministers, which is a note from CMAL at the time, back in October 2015, which says:

“Without guarantees for all payments made, there is a substantial risk. Under normal circumstances it is probably unlikely that a company of the size of CMAL would take on this risk.”

It says, “Under normal circumstances”. What were the abnormal circumstances that you were operating under?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We may return to some of these themes.