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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 June 2025
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Displaying 3214 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We will explore the issues around the gaps in the data more over the course of the morning.

I have a question about SEEMiS, the education management information system that is mentioned in the briefing. It struck me that some of the definitions are quite broad. One pupil in four needs additional support for learning due to

“social, emotional and behavioural difficulties”,

and there is a calculation that around 10 per cent of pupils require ASL for “other” needs, without it being specified what those needs are.

How does having such broad definitions and uncategorised groups in the system affect the ability to target, plan and resource properly to affect the outcomes, which is what we are interested in?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Is that one of the things that the project board is charged with addressing? If, as you say, the situation is complicated and there are different streams, which I presume are going at different rates at different times, it becomes difficult to understand whether there is proper resourcing. You talk about the need for a national measurement framework, which does not currently exist. I presume that that would help to pull some of this together, would it not?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Before we finish up, Auditor General, I note that, in the very final section of the briefing, you say something that has been a thread running through this morning’s evidence. The expression that you use is that

“The ASL Project Board has made limited progress”.

We have had a number of questions on that area. You set out that the ASL board was charged with implementing or having oversight over a 76-point action plan and that 40 of the 76 action points have been achieved or completed. The question that is in the air is: what about the 36 action points that have not been fully implemented? What are they and what progress has been made with them?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Yoshiko, do you want to comment on that?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I always make the point in these discussions that children are only eight, 12 or 15 once, so if we do not get it right now, there is no point in coming back in three years and saying that these are our conclusions and recommendations, because it is too late for that cohort of young people.

I invite Stuart McMillan to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is consideration of a briefing prepared by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission on additional support for learning.

I welcome our witnesses. From Audit Scotland, we are joined by Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General for Scotland, Alison Cumming, executive director, performance audit and best value, and Yoshiko Gibo, senior auditor. I am pleased to say that we are also joined by a member of the Accounts Commission, Ruth MacLeod.

Before we turn to the questions, Auditor General, I invite you to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Stuart McMillan will be coming back in a bit later on, but before we leave the areas that he was asking about, I want to go back to a couple of the statistics in the briefing.

We have mentioned the deprivation factor—as you have said, 46 per cent of pupils who require additional support for learning come from the most deprived areas, whereas 27 per cent come from the least deprived areas—but you have also highlighted the difference between boys and girls. I found that very striking when I first read the briefing. You say that boys are 22 per cent more likely to need additional support for learning, are three times more likely than girls to be in the “risk of exclusion” category—I presume that that is for behavioural reasons, although I might be wrong in making that assumption—and are twice as likely as girls to have additional support for learning needs arising from autism.

I know that you are not clinically qualified, Auditor General, but can you speculate, or do you have any evidence, on what might have caused those manifestations?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

That leads us nicely on to Graham Simpson’s areas of questioning, which include budgets and the financial resourcing of additional support for learning, as well as, I am quite sure, some wider questions that he wants to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

It was really useful to get that on the record. It also seems to me that you are saying that there is a real issue with transparency, and that is a matter of real importance to us, as the Public Audit Committee. If we cannot trace where the money is going and how effectively it is being applied, it becomes quite difficult to make any informed, evidence-based assessment of what is and is not working.

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I said earlier that Stuart McMillan had some more questions to put to you. Now that we are getting into the last lap, Stuart, I will pass over to you.