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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome to the 20th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is a decision on taking business in private. Do members agree to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I should have said, Mr Shackman—my mistake—I introduced you as being from the Scottish Government. You are in fact employed by Transport Scotland.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I am anxious to bring Willie Coffey in. There are only 60 minutes in this hour, so I am afraid that I will have to cut you off at that point, Colin. If we have time, I will you bring back in, but I want to bring in Willie Coffey, who has a series of questions to ask.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. If I take an example and look at the table in the report that tells me that, for example, the rail franchises got £441 million of public money and I contrast that with what I can see appears to be the moneys paid to local government for the drop in councils’ income from lettings, fees and so on, I see that the railways get twice as much as the whole of local government, if I am reading it correctly. The wellbeing fund got £34 million. How was that distribution determined? What tests were applied? What evaluation was applied by the Government in advance of the award of those funds? We all recognise that things were done—to coin the phrase—“at pace”, but nonetheless I presume that there needs to be some understanding of why one provider got so much and another got a different amount, and why some things were given greater priority in the allocation of resources than other things.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

To be clear, Martin McLauchlan spoke about data being expected within the next few weeks, but that is different from the broader evaluation that Ashleigh Madjitey spoke about. Are these two separate exercises?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Great. Thanks.

I mentioned that Willie Coffey has some more questions in that area. Do you want to come back in, Willie?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Social security: Progress on implementing the devolved benefits”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

At that point I would like to draw this session to a close and thank you, Auditor General and Carole Grant, for your input. I am quite sure that Social Security Scotland and its performance is something that the Public Audit Committee will continue to have under its watch. Thank you both very much indeed.

11:07 Meeting continued in private until 11:33.  

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

On 2 March, the Conveners Group of the Parliament had a meeting with the First Minister, and I raised with her some of the concerns that Richard Robinson said were expressed by Audit Scotland about the link between budgets, funding announcements and spending levels. In response to one of my questions, the First Minister said that she knew that JP Marks, the new permanent secretary, is keen to talk to Audit Scotland and the Auditor General about how we do that in general as well as the additional funding for Covid, and that was about trying to identify where the money has gone. Have you had those discussions with the permanent secretary?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Can I pick up on something that you said in reply to Willie Coffey about the rail franchise money—the £441 million that was given to the rail operators? Are you saying that that was all Barnett consequential money, or that additional Scottish Government was money put in?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Social security: Progress on implementing the devolved benefits”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed for that opening statement. You mentioned the minister in your opening comments. Rather unusually, the minister wrote an unsolicited letter to the committee on 19 May, in which he set out his response to the report, using expressions including

“significant progress”,

“the scale of what we have achieved”,

“a very substantial achievement”,

“the Scottish Government is preparing well”,

“the recommendations that Audit Scotland have highlighted are areas we had already identified and were working on prior to receipt of this report”,

“things are demonstrably working”,

and

“we have got robust processes”

In and among all that, do you think that there is a recognition of the scale of the challenges that you identify in the report and which you mentioned in your opening statement, and a recognition that substantial risks remain—not least, for example, that of getting operational staffing in place? Can you comment on what you see as the position of Social Security Scotland and the Scottish Government on that? Do you think that they fully recognise the challenges that lie ahead?