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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 September 2025
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Displaying 3340 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

However, you know that the Scottish public finance manual says:

“The essence of the Accountable Officer’s role is a personal responsibility for the propriety and regularity of the finances under their stewardship”.

So the buck stops with you, does it not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Does Graham Simpson want to come in?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

You have talked about other evidence that we have received, which you think revises the history book a little bit. In your submission to the committee you said that you were

“first aware of the guarantees issue following the selection of preferred bidder”.

However, the correspondence from February 2015 suggests that you were aware of that issue much earlier.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

No. I am trying to understand whether you had to sign off the voted loan decision.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Would that have gone to, for example, the cabinet secretary for finance, the Scottish Government’s director general in charge of finance, or the Cabinet?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I have a quick “yes or no” question for you, Mr Mackay. You mentioned in passing the issue of whether it was a fixed-price contract. Is it your belief that it was a fixed-price contract that you approved?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

It is. Thank you.

We have received a great deal of conflicting evidence—written and oral—over the past few months. As a committee, it is our duty to try to get to the bottom of that and, I suppose, to exercise a test of reasonableness with regard to what we believe. I thank you for your evidence this morning, which has illuminated some of that situation. On some matters, your evidence has perhaps created more areas where there appears to be conflicting evidence. We appreciate your willingness to appear before us and your frankness. If, on reflection, there are other issues that you want to bring to our attention, please do not hesitate to do that. Thank you for your time.

I bring the public part of the meeting to a close.

11:05 Meeting continued in private until 11:42.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Craig Hoy has some questions to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I will pick up on that point. Was Transport Scotland present at the CMAL board during that August to October period?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

There was quite a crucial date in or around that period. On 20 August, five days before the CMAL board meeting, during which the builders refund guarantee was discussed as a major issue, Keith Brown, as Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities, was told by a Transport Scotland official to approve the preferred bidder award to Ferguson Marine. Given that, on 25 August, there was knowledge of an issue around the builders refund guarantee, surely that was known on 20 August. If so, why was that not communicated to the cabinet secretary?