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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

That was evidence that we heard from Jim McColl, who said that he had been in a private meeting with Derek Mackay, which the civil servants had been asked to leave, when he was told that there was what he described as a legal letter from the board of CMAL threatening resignation en masse.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Again, just for the record, Mr Østergaard, neither did you, as chair of the board, notwithstanding the very strong terms of the email that you sent on 26 September, in the afternoon, saying, quite starkly:

“In my opinion the best option would be to bin the present result and start from scratch on the basis of our initial requirements”.

Those are quite strong terms, are they not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We have an attachment in an email that was sent to ministers, which is a note from CMAL at the time, back in October 2015, which says:

“Without guarantees for all payments made, there is a substantial risk. Under normal circumstances it is probably unlikely that a company of the size of CMAL would take on this risk.”

It says, “Under normal circumstances”. What were the abnormal circumstances that you were operating under?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We may return to some of these themes.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We are going to pursue those issues in a moment, but I want to take you back to the 31 August announcement. We now know from internal emails that were released in 2019 that there was an email to Keith Brown on 20 August 2015, copying in Alexander Anderson, the senior special adviser to the First Minister. Under the heading “Presentational issues”, paragraph 16 says:

“It would be appropriate for Mr Mackay as Minister for Transport and Islands to lead on this announcement”.

However, we know that, 11 days later, the First Minister was accompanying Mr Mackay and presumably leading on the announcement. What did you know about what was going on behind the scenes at the Scottish Government at that point?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

So that was the clear inference. Were you invited to that event, as non-executive members of the board?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I have a final question for Mr Østergaard. In your opinion, given your experience, do you think that the ferries will be fit for purpose?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

My understanding is that CalMac cannot refuse the ferries, for example; it will be required to operate them. We have received evidence from people that suggests that there will be problems because of the length of time that it has taken to build the vessels. You do not see that.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed, Bill. I should have declared my interest as the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers parliamentary convener. In that capacity, I might dispute some of your views about the settled patterns as they will be in the future compared to coming out of the pandemic.

Willie Coffey is trying his best to get in, and I am going to give him the last word before I conclude the meeting.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects

Meeting date: 30 June 2022

Richard Leonard

This morning we are primarily concentrating on transport projects, especially road and rail. Again for my information, could you explain a bit more about the targeted review of the capital spending review, which sounds to me like a review of a review? What is that comprised of? How are priorities are set and allocations awarded at the end of that?