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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you for your evidence, Mr Middleton. We appreciate your time and your written submission. If anything else occurs to you after you leave the room, or if your recollection expands, do not hesitate to contact us and to put in writing anything that you think would be helpful to the pursuit of our inquiry.

I suspend the meeting to allow for a changeover of witnesses.

09:43 Meeting suspended.  

09:49 On resuming—  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

We move to the second part of our evidence gathering today. We are pleased to welcome Derek Mackay, who has given us a written submission and is also here to answer questions that the committee wishes to pose. Mr Mackay, you were formerly Minister for Transport and Islands as well as Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Constitution, and we might ask you questions related to both roles. First, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I will take you back to 20 August 2015. At the time, you were on leave, but an email was sent to Keith Brown as the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities. That email covered a range of things, including Jim McColl’s position, but it also spoke about presentational issues. The email said that you—as the minister not only for transport but the islands—were the person who was to lead on the announcement that would subsequently be made. However, as we now know, you did not lead on it; the First Minister led on it. Can you tell us what happened in those intervening days?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

How come the First Minister made that announcement at the yard rather than you?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Yes.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Keith Brown was asked to approve it, though, was he not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Can I pick up on that? You have already told us that you were a “proactive minister”, so I do not think that it is satisfactory to rely on a civil service draft as a reason for that letter going out, which said that the builders refund guarantee was a preference—it said that although the CMAL board had

“a preference for refund guarantees it has on occasion taken alternative approaches”.—[Official Report, 17 May 2022; c 11.]

Jim McColl told us:

“That gave us the green light to go ahead and put the resources in to put in the tender. There is a lot of work that goes into tenders and we were not going to go ahead and do all of that if we were not going to be allowed to negotiate a different form of guarantee.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 16 June 2022; c 5.]

How appropriate do you think it is, in the middle of a tender process, for you, as the minister, to send that kind of letter?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

As you know, it has taken a different view in the evidence that it has submitted to us.

I want to ask a final question before I bring in Willie Coffey. Going back to the letter of comfort and the voted loan, I think that the loan’s value was £106 million, and the value of the tender was £96 million or £97 million. Who was party to decisions about the issuing of the letter of comfort and agreeing to a voted loan of that scale?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

So you are saying that the transfer of risk from FMEL to CMAL and then to the Scottish Government would have been taken by officials, with no political sign-off.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. We might investigate that matter a bit more deeply.

I turn to Willie Coffey.