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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 16 September 2025
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Displaying 3340 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I will now bring in the deputy convener, who wants to follow a particular line of inquiry.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I want to inject a sense of perspective. The pilot was presumably intended to understand whether that line of inquiry was worth pursuing and whether the resources invested in it will reap a significant harvest. The report says that, of all the cases in Fife during that year,

“Thirteen matches showed cause for concern as the NECs appeared to have been used after the death of the cardholder. Two of these cards were used for journeys to the value of almost £2,300 for one”—

I do not know where you can go to from Fife for that kind of money—

“and £240 for the other. The value of the journeys for the other 11 cards varied from £3.10 to £69.00.”

First, that seems to show how honest the good people of Fife are. Secondly, does that indicate that there is a major problem that would require lots of resources to be turned over to extend the pilot into a national-level scheme?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

We resume this morning’s consideration of evidence by the Public Audit Committee with agenda item 3, under which we continue our consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 22 report, “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”.

I welcome our witnesses. We are joined by Maggie Chapman MSP, who is a member of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Alongside her is David McGill, who is the clerk/chief executive of the Scottish Parliament, and Huw Williams, who is private secretary and head of office in the clerk/chief executive’s office.

We have received your written submissions in response to a letter that was sent in my name, as convener of the Public Audit Committee, and in Martin Whitfield’s name, as convener of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee. We shall no doubt turn to some of the issues arising from that in our questions.

We have set aside some time for questions from members of the committee, but we would like to offer Maggie Chapman the opportunity to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Before I turn to Sharon Dowey, I observe that although this committee is particularly interested in the historical reviews, we are also interested in the history of the outcomes that those reviews have produced.

I ask Sharon Dowey to open the questioning for us.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

That sounds like the institutions are happy, but what about the complainants? You do not need to answer that question.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. One of the things that we are interested in is the gap that might exist between the theory and the practice. The issue is whether the good practice that you have outlined is actually being followed through, whether it was followed through in session 5 and, if not, how we came to that situation. Martin Whitfield and I wrote to you initially about our concerns that came out of the section 22 report by Audit Scotland, and one of the underlying issues that we outlined in our letter was how things could have got to that stage and why there was not much earlier intervention.

Something else that is referred to in the correspondence is enhanced governance arrangements. The expression that is used in the report is that they had

“deteriorated to a significant degree”.

There is a record of deep-seated problems at almost an interinstitutional level. Could you outline to us what progress you have made in the area of enhancing the governance arrangements and seeking to address the clear deficiencies that gave rise to the section 22 report into the ethical standards commissioner?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome to the 23rd meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is to decide whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

That might be a philosophical point, Mr Hoy.

I will look more closely at the pilots. One of the pilots that is highlighted in the report was undertaken in Fife Council on the national entitlement cards for travel. How long did that pilot take place for? What period did it cover?

09:45  

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Yes, a single bus journey of £3.10 may not be worthy of a major national exercise in trying to understand what is happening.

Another interesting area that you mention is the pilot that is under way with Social Security Scotland. That pilot looks particularly at whether there are examples of people claiming benefits as if they are resident in Scotland when they actually are not resident in Scotland and at any cases of people who have multiple addresses and are, therefore, putting in multiple claims. How many matches have you found through that pilot?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Do you have a sense of the scale of that? Is it at the level of national entitlement card fraud in Fife, or is it much more widespread?