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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

We have had discussions in the context of the section 22 report into South Lanarkshire College about what the point is of regional boards and whether the structure in the sector is too top heavy, with the Scottish Funding Council, regional boards, college boards, principals—now principals/chief executive officers, as many of them describe themselves—vice principals, assistant principals and so on. There are some big questions there, are there not, about whether the management and governance of the sector are as effective as they could be?

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. That concludes our questions. The evidence session has raised important issues, as I said earlier, about the financial state of the college sector in Scotland in 2022 and whether it is delivering the outcomes that we all want to see for students.

I thank the Auditor General, Mark McCabe and Carolyn McLeod for their evidence; it has been very helpful, and we shall consider our next steps.

I close the public part of the meeting.

10:01 Meeting continued in private until 11:28.  

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

In part, it might be a result of the timing of different surveys. I see that Mark McCabe is nodding at that.

Willie Coffey has more questions in this area.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

The principal item on our agenda this morning is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s briefing on “Scotland’s colleges 2022”. Our witnesses from Audit Scotland, who are in the committee room, are: the Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle; Carolyn McLeod, audit director, performance audit and best value; and Mark McCabe, audit manager. You are all very welcome.

Auditor General, as you know, you should feel free to bring in your supporting wing members at the points at which you would find it most useful to do so and when that would be most enlightening for the committee. I ask you to kick off by giving a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. We have questions that touch on all the areas that you have outlined in your opening statement, which is very helpful in setting the scene.

The most striking expression that is used in the briefing—it is used twice—is that the finances are “healthier than expected”, although it is clear that Scotland’s colleges are still in a precarious financial position. Could you say a little more about the “healthier than expected” position? Colleges are viewed by many people as public sector institutions, and most public sector institutions were not eligible to qualify for the coronavirus job retention scheme or furlough moneys, for example, or for other Covid grants that were available to businesses. Could you explain a little more about how it came to pass that Scotland’s colleges drew down on that money to such an extent that you offer that as an explanation of their financial position being rosier than might otherwise have been expected?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, you have mentioned real-terms cuts. I presume that that is based on a multiyear forecast of what inflation will be. That is a bit of a stab in the dark, is it not? At the moment, the retail prices index is more than 12 per cent. In the context of the multiyear funding award, we could be looking at quite a drastic real-terms cut in funding.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Before I bring Colin Beattie in, I want to have a look at one other area: Brexit. There have been periods in the past when Scotland’s colleges have been able to draw on European social funds and other streams of support from the European Union. That support is no longer available or is being tapered out of the system completely. In its place, we are offered the United Kingdom shared prosperity fund. Will that find its way through to Scotland’s colleges in the way that European Union funds did? Given that it is likely to be administered by, or go to, local authorities, what expectation is there that that money will reach the further education sector?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I invite Colin Beattie to ask some questions about the sector’s financial sustainability.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s colleges 2022”

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Richard Leonard

We move to questions from Craig Hoy.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Richard Leonard

However, you know that the Scottish public finance manual says:

“The essence of the Accountable Officer’s role is a personal responsibility for the propriety and regularity of the finances under their stewardship”.

So the buck stops with you, does it not?