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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

So it is not something that you would prescribe in the job advertisement and the job description for people applying for the post. I have not looked at the advert. Does it say “You will be the accountable officer”, “You might be the accountable officer” or “You might not be the accountable officer”?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Can I infer from that that your expectation is that the new postholder will be the accountable officer?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. Thank you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I will pick up the point to which Willie Coffey alluded. Paragraph 18 of the Auditor General’s section 22 report points out that, in 2016-17, 43 per cent of complaints against councillors and board members were not pursued further, but, by the time we get to 2020-21, 84 per cent of cases lodged were not pursued. There might have been an increase in vexatious cases that inflated that number, but the Auditor General’s conclusion talks about a “loss of corporate memory” and “significant staff turnover”, and it says:

“it is likely attributable to a change to the way in which incoming complaints were initially assessed.”

I hear what has been said about taking legal advice and not being able to reopen cases. However, someone might have lodged a complaint about the misconduct of a councillor, an MSP, an NHS board member or whoever with an organisation that was clearly malfunctioning, so why is it so categorical that the door is closed to them raising their complaint with an organisation that has now been made fit for purpose but which, according to the section 22 report, was not at that time?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I am anxious to move on, but I have one almost factual question. Since April 2021, the head of corporate services has been the accountable officer for the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland. We understand that you are in the process of recruiting a new commissioner. Will that new postholder also be the accountable officer?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Willie Coffey wants to come in at this point.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Members of the committee will ask further detailed questions about some of the areas that you have identified.

One thing that you mentioned, and that Anthony Clark mentioned in his opening statement, is alluded to in the report. There appears to be greater reliance on external agents this time. I presume that that is a euphemism for the outsourcing of some of the data matching work. First, do you have any reflection on whether that affected the quality of the data matching exercises? Secondly, was there a pattern? For example, did smaller local authorities struggle more with the effects of Covid and therefore have to rely on outsourcing some of that work, or did big local authorities and big public agencies also do that?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I have a couple of questions to get us under way.

It struck me that the cases that were identified—I think that they led to four prosecutions by the police—are largely small-scale, household-level examples of fraud or individual fraud. Is part of the exercise designed to look at the wider spread of organised crime fraud or at examples of much bigger, co-ordinated attempts to defraud the system?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I will now bring in the deputy convener, who wants to follow a particular line of inquiry.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I want to inject a sense of perspective. The pilot was presumably intended to understand whether that line of inquiry was worth pursuing and whether the resources invested in it will reap a significant harvest. The report says that, of all the cases in Fife during that year,

“Thirteen matches showed cause for concern as the NECs appeared to have been used after the death of the cardholder. Two of these cards were used for journeys to the value of almost £2,300 for one”—

I do not know where you can go to from Fife for that kind of money—

“and £240 for the other. The value of the journeys for the other 11 cards varied from £3.10 to £69.00.”

First, that seems to show how honest the good people of Fife are. Secondly, does that indicate that there is a major problem that would require lots of resources to be turned over to extend the pilot into a national-level scheme?