Official Report: search what was said in Parliament
The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Public Audit Committee
Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Scottish Canals”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
For clarification, you talk about new auditors, but that is because there is a rotation process, is there not? It is no longer Grant Thornton but a different firm that is auditing your accounts on behalf of Audit Scotland.
I invite our deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, to put a question or two to you.
Public Audit Committee
Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Scottish Canals”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
But do you accept the findings and recommendations of the Audit Scotland report?
Public Audit Committee
“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Given Mr Cook’s response, I note that the evidence that we took from Mr Mackay was that the letter that he signed to Mr McMillan had been prepared by his officials.
Given Mr Wilcock’s point, I note that the request for that information from Transport Scotland was made by the committee in November 2022. It finally saw the light of day in March 2023 following an FOI trawl, not because the department had been sufficiently adept at finding it for us when we first asked for it back in November. That was not a one-off. There was a pattern, which Mr Beattie will speak about shortly.
Public Audit Committee
Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Scottish Canals”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
I do not know whether Graham Simpson has any further questions to put. I he had not, that concludes this morning’s session.
I thank all the witnesses from Transport Scotland and Scottish Canals for their time and evidence. We might want to follow up on some points, and we, as a committee, will need to consider our next steps; for example, whether we need to bring you back in before next year or whether we are not going to see you again for a long time or whatever. All that is not entirely in our hands, you understand.
I thank you again for your time and patience this morning. As I said, we will consider our next steps. There are certainly some points that we might want to follow up with you in writing.
I draw the public part of this morning’s committee to a close.
11:26 Meeting continued in private until 11:32.Public Audit Committee
“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
But what is the Government’s response to it? We did not get a response from Kevin Stewart, so we are asking you this morning.
Public Audit Committee
Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Scottish Canals”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
I go back to the substantive point that a disclaimer has been issued. Again on 29 June, when the Auditor General appeared before the committee, he emphasised that the issuing of a disclaimer is “a serious matter”.
Mr Paterson, you issued a note to accompany the papers today in which you spoke of a “demanding timeframe”—that was your expression. When I look back at the evidence that we took last year, I see that Sarah Jane Hannah confirmed that, even back in the 2012-13 audit—although she was not working in the organisation at that point—Audit Scotland had flagged up the possibility that there might be a requirement to have a fixed asset register. When I look back to November 2019, I see that Scottish Canals looked for a year’s delay at that point, but we are now nearly four years on and the work is still not completed.
Will you comment on that? Why are you still seeking an understanding of the “demanding timeframe” that you face, when it appears to me that you have faced it for quite some time?
Public Audit Committee
“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
I think that we were told that it was a special adviser.
Public Audit Committee
“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
I will move on to another area in which there has been public interest, and that is who, in the end, was responsible for signing off the contract. Mr Wilcock alluded to the 200-odd documents that the Government has released, which included email exchanges in which John Swinney’s officials spoke about banana skins, for example. There seemed to be, and still appears to be, some confusion over who, in the end, signed the contract off. Was it Derek Mackay, Keith Brown or John Swinney? Has the Government drawn any lessons from that observation of the committee?
Public Audit Committee
“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Yes, but it is not even clear, Ms Irvine, whether Mr Mackay was on holiday and therefore Mr Brown signed the authorisation, for example. All that I am saying is that there continues to be a degree of confusion about that process and where the authorisation lay.
I will bring in Mr Beattie, who has some questions that develop the theme of Transport Scotland’s role.
Public Audit Committee
“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
One of the areas where we suggested that there could be a revision is the public recording of decisions. In this case, the CMAL board was overridden by a shareholder authorisation that has an equivalence with a written authority. I wonder whether you could respond—in writing, not right now—with the Government’s position on the public recording of instances of shareholder authorisation being required.
