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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Do you accept that no minute of that was produced or found?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
The former First Minister said to us:
“Officials have been unable to locate a note of this meeting”.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Okay. I know that Mr Brannen was absolutely clear about pinning responsibility on Mr Mackay. As a committee, our observation was that, at the time of the decision, there appeared to be more hands on the tiller than just Mr Mackay’s. As you say, minister, we know that it was not a ministerial name on the contract, but it did require ministerial authorisation, which makes it important to us to understand who was responsible.
As I say, we are interested to find out what lessons have been learned from that and how we can get more clarity on what was actually a very important decision and one that has become more important with hindsight, as things have progressed.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Well, the Government was the only shareholder involved. Anyway, that would be helpful.
I will turn finally to Graham Simpson, who has some more questions to put.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
As I have mentioned the workforce, I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests and my membership of the GMB union.
Do you have any reflections on the role of the workforce and the extent to which it has been involved or, conversely, sidelined in some decisions? Our sense has been, certainly when we visited the yard, that it was absolutely underlined that the workforce had a clear view of how the construction project should have been undertaken, in relation to the configuration and reconfiguration of the yard, but that was ignored. Do you now have a view on the weight that should be attached to that voice?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
It is a question of transparency and openness about how the Government dealt with this. I think that it is a legitimate question. For example, we were told by the now director general for net zero, Mr Brannen, that decisions of the “gravity and size”—that was his expression—of ScotRail being nationalised would go to Cabinet. I am just trying to understand whether the decision to nationalise the yard at Port Glasgow would have been a Cabinet-level decision.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Okay. I will bring in the deputy convener now.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much.
We are pressed for time, but I turn to Colin Beattie to ask a series of questions.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 23rd meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee.
The first item on our agenda is a decision whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Do members of the committee agree to do so?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Scottish Government’s response to the report that the committee produced in spring of this year, “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”.
I welcome to the meeting Fiona Hyslop, Minister for Transport, who is joined by Colin Cook, director for economic development, Scottish Government and, from Transport Scotland, Alison Irvine, interim chief executive, and Chris Wilcock, head of ferries unit.
We have a number of questions to ask, minister, but first I invite you to make a short opening statement.