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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies (Progress Review)

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

In our first evidence session this morning, we will consider “Progress Review of Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies”. I am pleased to welcome the Scottish Government witnesses in the committee room. Paul Johnston is director general communities; Mary McAllan is director of Covid recovery and public service reform; and Catriona Maclean is deputy director public bodies support unit.

Colin Beattie, who is the fifth member of the committee, is joining us remotely. I will bring him in shortly.

I invite the director general to make an opening statement, after which we will have questions. We have copies of the review report that was produced for you and your response to the recommendations in it.

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies (Progress Review)

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

Thanks. That would be helpful.

I move on to another area. A couple of minutes ago, Mr Johnston, you said that fewer people are carrying out the role and that it is about how that workload is managed. However, at the same time, new public bodies are being created.

I am interested in the railways, for example—I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. As I understand it, under the structure from 1 April this year, Scottish ministers act through Transport Scotland, which has oversight of Scottish Rail Holdings, which in turn has oversight of ScotRail Trains Limited, and—who knows?—after this weekend, maybe the Caledonian sleeper will be added to that list. How does that relationship work in practice? I know that it is not within your directorate, but I want to understand how the sponsor arrangement operates when a new public body is created.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

We are living in times that are quite different even from those in 2017, when the legislation was drafted.

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies (Progress Review)

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

Finally, we turn to questions from the committee’s deputy convener, Sharon Dowey.

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies (Progress Review)

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

I will just follow up on Colin Beattie’s questions. It would be useful for us to understand what the vacancy rate is now and what it was at the time of the report.

I am also interested in the fact that sponsor roles are not seen as “sexy”—somebody says that in the report; I am not sure that it is the view of the report. I am not sure what that means. People in sponsor roles are in bands A to C. The salary range starts off in the low £20,000s in band A, but goes up to about £76,000 in band C. Are you having difficulty in attracting people to the higher-paid posts or to the lower-paid posts? Where is the problem in that spectrum of pay grades?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

That might be a philosophical point, Mr Hoy.

I will look more closely at the pilots. One of the pilots that is highlighted in the report was undertaken in Fife Council on the national entitlement cards for travel. How long did that pilot take place for? What period did it cover?

09:45  

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Yes, a single bus journey of £3.10 may not be worthy of a major national exercise in trying to understand what is happening.

Another interesting area that you mention is the pilot that is under way with Social Security Scotland. That pilot looks particularly at whether there are examples of people claiming benefits as if they are resident in Scotland when they actually are not resident in Scotland and at any cases of people who have multiple addresses and are, therefore, putting in multiple claims. How many matches have you found through that pilot?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Do you have a sense of the scale of that? Is it at the level of national entitlement card fraud in Fife, or is it much more widespread?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I do not want to put words in the witnesses’ mouths but they said in answer to the initial question that was put to them on the blue badge scheme that the mortality rate among people with disabilities was higher than that in the general population. That might explain why there was a rise during the period. It is worth waiting to see what the next round of NFI results tells us about that before we jump to any conclusions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I take you back to Sharon Dowey’s initial question on the practice of conferring with the clerks on areas that the corporate body considers that committees should scrutinise office-holders on. Did that take place in session 5—yes or no?