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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 3 February 2026
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Displaying 3697 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Criminal courts backlog”

Meeting date: 8 June 2023

Richard Leonard

In the report, you mention other weaknesses over and above the failure to carry out equality impact assessments. You set those out in paragraph 83. Again, they stand out as areas of significant concern. You say that the Scottish Government and the criminal justice board

“did not agree clear plans, outcomes and success measures”

for the recover, renew, transform programme; that

“the RRT advisory group was not given the opportunity to be sufficiently engaged”

in that programme; and that the advisory group did not seem to get full access to decision making.

You also say that

“wider public reporting of the programme was limited”;

that there was inconsistency; that minutes of the criminal justice board meetings were not produced; and that the results of a lessons-learned exercise appear not to have been adopted.

We would expect such rudimentary elements of operation to be met but, according to your report and findings, that was simply not the case. Will you elaborate a bit more on why that was?

Public Audit Committee

“Criminal courts backlog”

Meeting date: 8 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Has work begun on addressing those weaknesses?

Public Audit Committee

“Criminal courts backlog”

Meeting date: 8 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We might follow up on that as well, as we consider our next steps.

Craig Hoy has a final series of questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. We will come to questions shortly, but before that I invite Gregor Irwin to give us a short opening statement as well.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. You mentioned written authority and the recent statement to Parliament. We will start with questions around that from the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Again, under the Scottish public finance manual, you are obliged to speak up if you think that something is not value for money, which you did. Do you not think that you blurred the lines a little bit in your role as an impartial civil servant in the justification that appears in your letter to Neil Gray, which we have seen, around Government policy objectives and ministerial decisions? You stray into the policy territory. Why did you feel that it was necessary to do that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay.

I will come back to Gregor Irwin. In your letter to me of 19 May, you say that the reason why you were not prepared to disclose any of the FMI report was that you needed to protect FMI’s methodologies and intellectual property. However, I presume that any consultant that is hired by the Government has a methodology and relies to a certain extent on intellectual property rights. Why on earth would any report by any consultant ever be published, if such are the criteria to be applied?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

If the payment is for performance—

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Hang on a minute, Mr Miller. This is not just an enterprise in which public money has been invested. It is owned by the Scottish Government. There is one shareholder, which is the Scottish Government—

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

—so, as the chair of the board of that organisation, do you not see there being any need for public accountability and public interest in the remuneration structure—not of the people who are building the ships but of the people at the top of the organisation?