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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 November 2025
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Displaying 3443 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

I want to cover a couple of areas before we close. One is in the table in exhibit 2 that tells us about the rates of complaints. I must say that one of the things that struck me was about the 1,227 elected councillors in Scotland. That number does not include board members, who can be added to that category. They are facing 146 complaints. However, the 129 MSPs are facing 760 complaints. Why is there that difference?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

I am looking at recommendation 3.4 in the action plan.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Pat, you have shared your experience of dealing with commissioners’ offices over many years. Is it usual for there to be a split between the roles of commissioner and accountable officer?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

If anyone were to take up Pat Kenny’s recommendation of an end-to-end review, that issue might be worth considering. From the committee’s point of view, it might be useful if we were able to get data on the accountable officer/commissioner role in the various commissions that are accountable to Parliament. It would be useful for us to have sight of that, because the position of accountable officer is in the Scottish public finance manual as a designated position and is, invariably, I think, the person who is the most senior official in the organisation.

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I think that it is right that we leave the last word to you, Pat, because it has felt a bit like an exit interview, given the candour with which you have shared your honest assessment of what is going on out there. I found that extremely useful.

I thank the Auditor General, Richard Robinson and Pat Kenny for their evidence. We have found it a very useful session. As a committee, we will consider our next steps. Thank you for your contributions this morning.

10:04 Meeting continued in private until 11:39.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 3, which is our principal item of business this morning, is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 22 report “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”. I welcome our witnesses: the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle; Pat Kenny, director of audit and assurance at Deloitte; and Richard Robinson, senior manager at Audit Scotland. We have a number of questions to put to you about the report but, before we do that, I invite the Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That was a useful laying out of the principal points in the report and some of the areas that we are keen to probe a bit more deeply. I begin by inviting Willie Coffey to put some opening questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Before I bring in Colin Beattie, I want to go back to the question that Sharon Dowey asked about the governance arrangements and the relationship between the SPCB and the office of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland. Pat Kenny talked about the new whistleblowing arrangements, and Richard Robinson mentioned the threshold and internal outlets for people inside the organisation to raise concerns. That is right.

However, there were other warning signs, were there not, that some things were not happening as they ought to be happening? We should not have simply relied on staff working in the organisation to point those out. In last year’s section 22 report, you documented that, in 2016-17, 43 per cent of complaints against councillors and board members “were not pursued further”, but by the time we get to 2020-21, 84 per cent of the cases that were lodged were not pursued. It was not just a matter of the people who worked day in, day out at the organisation having some concerns about the culture; presumably, there ought to have been some external monitoring of the quite big change in the way in which complaints were being processed. It comes back to the root point: this is about public trust and confidence in the whole system.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

You mentioned exhibit 2 in one of your answers. Craig Hoy has questions on that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes—I understand that you do not, as an auditor, want to speculate. We are very flattered by what you have just told us about our profiles.

However, the serious point is one that I made earlier: when the organisation appeared to be in some kind of crisis, one of the measures of that was the extent to which cases were not pursued. I have cited the example of complaints against councillors, 84 per cent of which were not pursued. Do you have an up-to-date figure for cases that are not being pursued?