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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 November 2025
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Displaying 3443 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 23 March 2023

Richard Leonard

May I clarify something that probably stems from my ignorance? On the one hand, you talked, and I asked a question, about the increase in resources—an additional £4 billion over the past five or six years—but, on the other hand, the narrative in paragraph 24 of the report is about how health boards have to make savings. Can you reconcile the two for me? A record level of public money, £19 billion, is going into the national health service—not into the broader category of public health but into the national health service—yet, at the same time, there is a call on national and territorial NHS boards to make savings.

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 23 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes, thanks. The broader questions, which we have touched on before, are around inequality and poverty, which are often the drivers of the demands that are placed on the national health service. So, there is a broader public health question and a societal question. We probably do not have time to go into that this morning, but it is an important thread that runs through the issue.

I will apply the handbrake and jump on to something else, which is related but quite different. In the report, you talk about the capital maintenance backlog budget. I know that it has been the focus of attention in previous years. Again, there is a long-standing critique of why it should be backlog maintenance rather than proactive maintenance. If maintenance is carried out on an on-going basis, it becomes less reactive and probably more cost effective. Again, that might be another debate for us to have.

In the report, you indicate that it is proposed to double investment in the capital maintenance backlog budget over the next five years. Given all the other pressures on spending in the national health service, how confident are you that that is an achievable goal?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 23 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes, we will return to that next week and beyond. Craig Hoy has questions on one of the other topics that is important to the Parliament.

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 23 March 2023

Richard Leonard

My take from that is that we cannot rely on a top-down solution; there needs to be proper participatory engagement of people if there is going to be any faith placed in any reforms that happen.

Thank you so much for your evidence. As I said at the start, the report was impactful when it was published and I think that it will continue to resonate. It has certainly given us, as a committee, quite a number of areas that we will want to pursue to get to where we think public interest needs to get to on where these reforms are; what is happening with the money that is going into the NHS; whether the outcomes are being delivered; and, if they are not, why not and what can be done to fix that. Thank you very much for your contributions this morning, and I thank committee members for their questions.

10:34 Meeting continued in private until 11:10.  

Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the seventh meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2023. The first item on our agenda is a decision on whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

The second item is a decision on whether to hold our next meeting, on Thursday 9 March, in private. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

The action plan on the 22 recommendations and the charting of progress in the wider audit report are very useful for us. That gives us a factual presentation of how well things are going and where there are issues. We will come on to some of the issues that are identified in the action plan and that we think are outstanding. I turn to the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

One of the issues that arose last year concerned the separation of the commissioner from the position of accountable officer. What is the current status on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

My final question is about an issue that Pat Kenny mentioned earlier on. We were a bit concerned about the medium-term financial planning arrangements. We were told in the action plan report that action on that was outstanding. We were struck by the expression that, in the management’s view,

“this is considered a low priority”,

to which our response was, by whom? To us, medium-term financial planning seems pretty important in ensuring the sustainability of an organisation such as a commissioner’s office.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

We will come on to the outstanding cases that are sitting with the commissioner’s office, but I will bring in Colin Beattie first.