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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Good. Craig Hoy will now ask some questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes. I do not think that I was suggesting that people are not working hard, permanent secretary; I was asking whether we are prioritising, whether the strategy is right and whether the leadership is there. Many of us remember the Christie commission, which had a full-scale agenda for reform involving early intervention, doing things differently and investing at the right time in order to have the most effective outcomes. Much of that remains underutilised. To quote the Auditor General again, I note that he has spoken at various times about the “implementation gap”. The stated aims are very worthy, but the question that we are bound to ask is what is going on out there on the ground.

We are short of time, so we will move on to questions from Craig Hoy.

10:15  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We have two or three more critical areas that we want to cover before the session ends. One of those is public sector reform, which I think Alison Cumming alluded to a few minutes ago.

We know that, following the resource spending review, last May or June, an outline of public sector reform priorities was set forward by the Government that spoke about

“New approaches to public services (such as the development of the National Care Service)”,

“Reforms to public sector capacity and pay”,

“Efficiencies for the public sector, including further use of shared services?and efficiencies in the management of the public sector estate”,

and

“Reform to Scotland’s 129 public bodies.”

What progress have you made with that agenda?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

I am afraid that you cannot get away with mentioning Prestwick airport without Willie Coffey wishing to come in with a question, so I invite him to put his point.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

The reason why that is important is not least that, as we reminded you last year when you had just arrived in your post, permanent secretary, it has been on-going since 2016. We were promised whole-of-public-sector consolidated accounts in 2016, and here we are in 2023 at stage 1. In his report, which we are discussing this morning, the Auditor General says:

“The continuing absence of a devolved public sector consolidated account means it is difficult to assess the overall health of Scotland’s public finances at a time of greatest need.”

There is quite an urgency—this is quite imperative. Will you reflect on that after today’s session? I do not sense the urgency that we think is necessary to be applied so that we can get a full picture of what we own and what we owe, which is the expression that the Auditor General has used.

I move on to another area, which is capital borrowing. Back in 2018, I think, the then chief financial officer—it was not you, Jackie McAllister, but one of your predecessors—was able to provide to the committee a list of assets that attracted capital borrowing. Is the Scottish Government able to provide a list of underlying assets for which it uses capital borrowing today?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Before we move off this point, can you help us understand whether the green freeport projects, of which there are two in Scotland, will be the subject of scrutiny and audit by the Auditor General for Scotland?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

The main business this morning is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 22 report on “The 2021-22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”, along with his briefing on “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”.

It is almost exactly a year since we held our previous session on this subject, and I am pleased that, this time, all the witnesses are in the room with the committee. I am pleased to welcome the permanent secretary, John-Paul Marks. Alongside him from the Scottish Government are Colin Cook, director of economic development, Alison Cumming, director of budget and public spending, and Jackie McAllister, chief financial officer. Welcome to you all.

We have a range of questions to put to you, but, before we get to them, I invite the permanent secretary to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the sixth meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2023. The first item for the committee’s consideration is to agree to take agenda items 3 and 4 in private. Are we all agreed to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

On that positive note, I draw this morning’s evidence session to a close. I thank the witnesses—the permanent secretary, Colin Cook, Jackie McAllister and Alison Cumming—for their input. We did not quite get to some areas because of time, but we might follow those up in writing, if that is okay, and I think that you have undertaken to look at some of the issues that we have raised in the session and come back to us. I thank you very much for your time and your contributions.

10:35 Meeting continued in private until 14:00.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and “Scotland’s public finances: Challenges and risks”

Meeting date: 23 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Can you tell us more about the timescales that you work to for your borrowing? The fiscal framework has a default position of 10 years, has it not? Do you look at shorter or longer periods than that? How do you come to settle on that?