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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That was a useful laying out of the principal points in the report and some of the areas that we are keen to probe a bit more deeply. I begin by inviting Willie Coffey to put some opening questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Before I bring in Colin Beattie, I want to go back to the question that Sharon Dowey asked about the governance arrangements and the relationship between the SPCB and the office of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland. Pat Kenny talked about the new whistleblowing arrangements, and Richard Robinson mentioned the threshold and internal outlets for people inside the organisation to raise concerns. That is right.

However, there were other warning signs, were there not, that some things were not happening as they ought to be happening? We should not have simply relied on staff working in the organisation to point those out. In last year’s section 22 report, you documented that, in 2016-17, 43 per cent of complaints against councillors and board members “were not pursued further”, but by the time we get to 2020-21, 84 per cent of the cases that were lodged were not pursued. It was not just a matter of the people who worked day in, day out at the organisation having some concerns about the culture; presumably, there ought to have been some external monitoring of the quite big change in the way in which complaints were being processed. It comes back to the root point: this is about public trust and confidence in the whole system.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

You mentioned exhibit 2 in one of your answers. Craig Hoy has questions on that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes—I understand that you do not, as an auditor, want to speculate. We are very flattered by what you have just told us about our profiles.

However, the serious point is one that I made earlier: when the organisation appeared to be in some kind of crisis, one of the measures of that was the extent to which cases were not pursued. I have cited the example of complaints against councillors, 84 per cent of which were not pursued. Do you have an up-to-date figure for cases that are not being pursued?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay. That is helpful.

You mentioned a situation that I certainly raised last year; other members of the committee raised it as well, I think. It is our concern about what I think is referred to in the audit report as “functus officio”, which is a Latin legal term used in reference to people whose cases were discarded—maybe they were part of that 84 per cent—not having the right to resurrect their claims: those complaints are dead. Does that not raise wider questions about public confidence in the system and whether justice was served on those people? Can you comment on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Those people may, indeed, seek their own legal advice on that interpretation.

Another thing that rang a bit of an alarm bell with me was the fact that the management update on the recommendations in this area included the excerpt:

“We took our own legal advice and concluded that we could not re-open investigations on the basis of the legal principle ‘functus officio’. We also concluded that there would be no value in conducting a lessons learned process.”

Why was that conclusion arrived at?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, do you have anything to say about that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

We will come on to the outstanding cases that are sitting with the commissioner’s office, but I will bring in Colin Beattie first.

Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the seventh meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2023. The first item on our agenda is a decision on whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

The second item is a decision on whether to hold our next meeting, on Thursday 9 March, in private. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.