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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Do you therefore accept the criticism that has been levelled at you that you have not effectively planned for that change?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Okay. I will move things on by inviting Graham Simpson to ask you some questions.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

I am not sure whether you grasp what I took to be a fairly fundamental criticism of the funding arrangements. In part, that perhaps reflects Mr McMillan’s point that the briefing is clear that there is a direct correlation between areas with high levels of deprivation and the requirement for additional support for learning in those areas.

Are you satisfied that the current funding arrangements meet the challenge that is created by deprivation, inequality or, for example, the issue of English not being a person’s first language, which you have mentioned a couple of times this morning? Do you think that the funding arrangements properly address that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Just for completeness, Laura Caven, you are a co-chair of the project board. Who is the other co-chair?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

You said earlier that this is not just about data; it is about the operation of the system. I will finish on a point that is often one of my refrains. Children are only five once, eight once, 11 once and 15 once, so there is no point in coming back in four years’ time and saying that you have solved it, because, for that cohort of young people, it might be too late. There needs to be a sense of urgency about addressing some of the challenges that are set out in the briefing that we have been considering this morning.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Okay. I now invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Would I be right to infer from that that you think that some of the Accounts Commission and Auditor General timescales might not be realistic?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

You are describing an international phenomenon, but the briefing is about the Scottish Government and its responsibilities. Key message 4 says:

“the Scottish Government has not planned effectively for the potential impact of this ... approach to ASL.”

How do you respond to that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Our principal agenda item this morning is further consideration of the briefing, “Additional support for learning”, which was prepared jointly by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission. I am pleased to welcome representatives of the Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

From the Scottish Government, I welcome Neil Rennick, who is the director general of education and justice; Stella Smith, who is the unit head for additional support for learning; and Clair Henderson, who is the team leader for additional support for learning. Alongside them, from COSLA, are Laura Caven, who is the chief officer for children and young people and the co-chair of the additional support for learning project board, which we might have some questions about over the course of this morning; Suzanne McLeod, who is a policy manager in the employers team; and Joanna Anderson, who is a policy manager for the local government and finance team.

We would like to put a number of questions to your teams this morning but, before we do so, I invite the director general to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Before we move on, I go back to a fundamental point that the Auditor General made when he gave evidence before the committee on 19 March. He said that there had been

“an almost eightfold increase in the number of children and young people who need additional support for learning.”

He added:

“However, that is not reflected in how councils are funded for their education service.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 19 March 2025; c 7-8.]

Do you accept that criticism, director general?