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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay; thank you.

Obviously, the committee will have to consider whether it would be useful for us to invite officials from DG net zero to give evidence to us. If we decided to do that, we could put to them directly some of the questions that have arisen from our session with you.

I thank the Auditor General very much for the evidence that he has led this morning, and I thank Rebecca Seidel and Sally Thompson for the very useful evidence that they have contributed.

For the record, I should have mentioned at the start that Colin Beattie has submitted his apologies for not being at today’s meeting. I wanted to have that recorded.

I close the public part of the meeting and move us into private session.

10:08 Meeting continued in private until 11:03.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

The principal item on this morning’s agenda is for us to consider an important report, which the Auditor General published in April. The report relates to audit work that was conducted up until March, so it is very up to date in both data and analysis, and looks into how the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals.

I welcome our witnesses. Stephen Boyle is the Auditor General for Scotland. Alongside him are Rebecca Seidel and Sally Thompson, both of whom are senior managers at Audit Scotland.

As usual, we have quite a wide range of questions to put to you, but before we get into them, I ask the Auditor General to give us an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay. Obviously, part of our role as a parliamentary committee with an interest in this area is to hold Government to account and it might be that we will consider taking up what you have just told us.

Another thing struck me in relation to the point about transparency. Does the GCE programme board publish minutes, for example? Does it have minutes? If so, are they in the public domain?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Sometimes we as a committee consider elements of public life that are almost unique—for example, the national health service—but every Government in the northern and southern hemispheres has to face up to the global climate emergency.

To reiterate what I said at the start, your report came out last month, and is based on audit work that was carried out up until March of this year. In the report you say:

“The Scottish Government does not routinely carry out carbon assessments or capture the impact of spending decisions on its carbon footprint in the long term.”

Is that because it does not have a template to use? Presumably, other Governments are grappling with those kinds of measures and impact assessments and so on. Is there any good reason, learning from international experience, why those things could not be brought in and become an integral part of decision making in the Scottish Government?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I guess that my horizons are a bit wider than the UK. For example, what are the Scandinavian Governments doing? What is happening in Germany or some of the African states? There is no point in every single Government in every single country carrying out its own from-the-start approach. Presumably, shared understandings of policy implications and how you can better measure the impact of the decisions that you are taking on your climate change targets should exist.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I bring Willie Coffey back in. He has a point to put.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

However, are some of these things not pretty basic requirements? I am looking to you, Auditor General. It seems to me that the report points out that details of planned actions are

“vague and do not include intended completion dates”.

Neither is there any estimate of “expected impact.” That is pretty rudimentary, is it not, if you are carrying out a programme of work that is designed to bring about transformative change?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

For completeness, you said in the report:

“The GCE Programme Board does not have risk management arrangements in place, despite a recommendation from a 2019 internal review that this should be a priority.”

That was identified as a priority in 2019, but here we are in 2023 and those are still not in place.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “How the Scottish Government is set to deliver climate change goals”

Meeting date: 18 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I am sure that we will return through the next hour or so to some of those questions on where there are gaps, where there is a lack of clarity and on how things are working.

I want to begin with a question on governance arrangements. We are really interested to understand, from the work that you have done, your sense of the extent to which cross-Government collaboration is taking place in order to progress both climate change actions and the management of competing priorities. We take evidence on issues such as Government expenditure on major capital projects and are now beginning to interrogate more the extent to which they contribute positively, or maybe even negatively, towards those net zero goals. Could you address that question of cross-governmental collaboration?