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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 February 2024
Richard Leonard
We are now in the final stretch of our evidence session, and I invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 February 2024
Richard Leonard
Auditor General, will you comment on the fact that the senior finance person—the head of finance—does not sit at director level? There are four directors, but there is no director of finance. Is that unusual in an organisation such as this?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 February 2024
Richard Leonard
The wider-scope audit report suggests that the lack of itemised receipts related to “business entertaining costs”. What constitutes such costs?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 February 2024
Richard Leonard
The framework document, which was last reviewed in April 2022—in other words, at the start of the period—contains a section on gifts and hospitality, although I think that that relates to the board of directors rather than to staff. It covers the circumstances under which people need to record accepting or receiving gifts and so on; it does not cover giving gifts and hospitality. What is the policy on giving those versus receiving them? Were some of those expenses incurred by board members, or did the chief executive incur almost half of them, or more than that, while the rest were incurred by other members of staff?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 February 2024
Richard Leonard
Before we leave the question of governance, what role do you see for, and what part has been played by, the board? When I look at the audit and risk committee’s list of responsibilities, it includes
“the strategic processes for risk, control and governance ... adequacy of management response to issues identified by audit activity, including external audit”,
and
“the effectiveness of the internal control environment”.
Has it measured up to its responsibilities?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 February 2024
Richard Leonard
Is there a transparency issue here in relation to, first of all, the previous point about what contact was made between the executive directors, non-executive directors and the chair of the board, which the deputy convener referred to, and the Scottish Government? Is that in the public domain? Is it possible to understand what form that took?
Secondly, in quite a number of the answers to the deputy convener’s earlier questions about the role of the board and so on, you said that we do not know what the board knew when, but the board publishes minutes, does it not? Is there a transparency issue that the minutes of the board do not sufficiently represent what was discussed at board meetings?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Richard Leonard
Before we leave the subject of improvement notices, you referred in paragraph 29 of the report to an improvement notice that was served in May 2022. You said that the notice
“also highlighted significant issues in relation to the accuracy of verified data to assure SPS that billing information is correct.”
That rang an alarm bell for me and reminded me of instances—south of the border, admittedly—in which Serco and G4S had responsibility for community payback schemes and were charging the Government for prisoners whom they claimed they were tagging who were either dead or back in prison. Is anything of that sort of order going on here?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Richard Leonard
One of the particular risks that is attached to Barlinnie is the impact of the conditions on prisoners’ mental and physical health. In turn, that could potentially lead to litigation that is linked to human rights and equalities issues. Have you made any assessment of that? Is there a risk of a judicial review or some kind of litigation against the Scottish Government?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Richard Leonard
Auditor General, a couple of times this morning, you have used the expression that many of the issues that we have discussed cannot be resolved by the SPS alone. How would you see collaboration among the SPS, other affected public bodies and the Scottish Government working in practice?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Richard Leonard
Our second and main agenda item is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 22 report on the Scottish Prison Service, which was released in December. I welcome our witnesses. We are joined this morning by the Auditor General, and alongside him is Michael Oliphant, who is an audit director at Audit Scotland, and Tommy Yule, who is a senior audit manager at Audit Scotland.
We have a large number of questions to ask you about this morning’s report but, before we get to those, I invite the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.