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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
The business case appears to have been written by the person who was benefiting from the course, which is quite extraordinary.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
Can I move on to Mr Brannen? What do we spend on the training of top civil servants in the Scottish Government in that area?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
Ooft!
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
I am sorry to interrupt, but we are really running against the clock and the deputy convener has some questions to ask. I am going to bring him in now. If you get the opportunity, Kersti, you can respond to Jamie Greene’s questions.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
We are out of time, so I am going to wrap up this session and thank everyone for their evidence this morning.
You have given us quite a lot to think about, and I have one very quick final question. What is the value of six months’ salary for the chief executive who was paid off at the end of December?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
I welcome everyone back to the meeting for consideration of agenda item 3, which is on the section 23 report on the national health service in Scotland in 2023. I welcome our witnesses for this evidence session. We are joined by the Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle. Good morning, Auditor General. The audit director, Cornilius Chikwama, is back with us for this session. You are very welcome, Cornilius—good morning. Leigh Johnston, a senior manager at Audit Scotland, is also joining us, as is Martin McLauchlan, who is an audit manager at Audit Scotland.
We are a little bit up against the clock this morning, Auditor General, but, before we get to our questions, I invite you to make an opening statement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
I am going to kick off with a question that relates to the last point that you made, which was your critique that there is not really a long-term national vision for the national health service in Scotland. We have a new Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care in post. It is not your job to advise Government ministers what to do, but in the context of the job that you do have, what do you think the benefits would be of there being a clear national vision for the national health service? What effect would that have on the ability of boards to deliver the services that we need them to deliver?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
Thank you for painting that bigger picture. That is a useful way to start the evidence session. I invite Graham Simpson to put to you some questions that follow on from that starting point.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
Thanks, director general. Over to you, Mr MacRae.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 21 March 2024
Richard Leonard
Thank you. On that last point, it would be useful to have sight of the actions that you have undertaken and understand the progress that you have made on those. It would be helpful for the committee to see that.
I hear what has been said about the role of WICS and what it has done to bring in extra revenue, but the focus of the section 22 report is on conduct, behaviour, appropriate action and so on. I think that reference was made to the governance framework, which, as I understand it, was last reviewed in April 2022. Kind of ironically, that is the start of the period that is under scrutiny by Audit Scotland, which has turned up some quite concerning findings.
The Auditor General description to us of WICS’ arrangements was of
“significant weaknesses in financial management and governance”.—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 8 February 2024; c 2.]
He believed that those fell “far short” of what was expected. He identified issues that really stood out for him because he had never or rarely seen the like before in a public body. We will get into some of that this morning.
However, if
“Governance is the over-arching structure and strategy that provides accountability and direction, and influences the behaviours and culture within WICS”,
which is the very first sentence of WICS’ governance framework, how have we got to the situation that is reported in this section 22 report?