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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 4 February 2026
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Displaying 3715 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 8 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Before we leave the question of governance, what role do you see for, and what part has been played by, the board? When I look at the audit and risk committee’s list of responsibilities, it includes

“the strategic processes for risk, control and governance ... adequacy of management response to issues identified by audit activity, including external audit”,

and

“the effectiveness of the internal control environment”.

Has it measured up to its responsibilities?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 8 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Is there a transparency issue here in relation to, first of all, the previous point about what contact was made between the executive directors, non-executive directors and the chair of the board, which the deputy convener referred to, and the Scottish Government? Is that in the public domain? Is it possible to understand what form that took?

Secondly, in quite a number of the answers to the deputy convener’s earlier questions about the role of the board and so on, you said that we do not know what the board knew when, but the board publishes minutes, does it not? Is there a transparency issue that the minutes of the board do not sufficiently represent what was discussed at board meetings?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Before we leave the subject of improvement notices, you referred in paragraph 29 of the report to an improvement notice that was served in May 2022. You said that the notice

“also highlighted significant issues in relation to the accuracy of verified data to assure SPS that billing information is correct.”

That rang an alarm bell for me and reminded me of instances—south of the border, admittedly—in which Serco and G4S had responsibility for community payback schemes and were charging the Government for prisoners whom they claimed they were tagging who were either dead or back in prison. Is anything of that sort of order going on here?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

One of the particular risks that is attached to Barlinnie is the impact of the conditions on prisoners’ mental and physical health. In turn, that could potentially lead to litigation that is linked to human rights and equalities issues. Have you made any assessment of that? Is there a risk of a judicial review or some kind of litigation against the Scottish Government?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, a couple of times this morning, you have used the expression that many of the issues that we have discussed cannot be resolved by the SPS alone. How would you see collaboration among the SPS, other affected public bodies and the Scottish Government working in practice?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Our second and main agenda item is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 22 report on the Scottish Prison Service, which was released in December. I welcome our witnesses. We are joined this morning by the Auditor General, and alongside him is Michael Oliphant, who is an audit director at Audit Scotland, and Tommy Yule, who is a senior audit manager at Audit Scotland.

We have a large number of questions to ask you about this morning’s report but, before we get to those, I invite the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

I invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Colin, we are short of time. You have had about three last questions, so I will have to ask that we move on and invite Graham Simpson to put some questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Great. That would be helpful, because it is a component part of this discussion.

The other thing that is not new—you have already alluded to it—is that Audit Scotland produced a section 22 report on the Scottish Prison Service back in September 2019. Our predecessor committee was so concerned, it is fair to say, about what that report said that it undertook its own inquiry and brought in its own witnesses to try to get to the bottom of things. When I read that report, which came out four years ago, it looks as though a lot of the issues that it covers are the same issues that we are discussing today. They remain, by and large, unresolved. One of the issues contained in the report is that, according to the then Auditor General, HMP Barlinnie

“presents the biggest risk of failure in the prison system”,

and the report warns that

“there is no clear contingency plan for accommodating the 1,460 prisoners”

that it then held. Has there been a contingency plan for HMP Barlinnie?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 1 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We have covered a lot of ground. We would like to have got to even more, but time has been against us. I thank the Auditor General for his evidence and Michael Oliphant and Tommy Yule for their contributions. They have been valuable in illuminating what is, for the committee, quite a serious section 22 report into the current state of the Scottish Prison Service.

With that, I draw the public part of our proceedings to a close. The committee will now move into private session.

11:13 Meeting continued in private until 11:35.