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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

I will come on to ask about the focus groups in a second. Before I do so, I note that paragraph 15 in the report sets out the scale of the challenge that we face. It talks about what appear to be almost epidemic proportions, in that 22 per cent of the adult population

“may have a psychiatric disorder”.

You talk about the huge expansion in pressure and demand on services. For example,

“The number of police incidents relating to mental health increased by 62 per cent ...The Scottish Association for Mental Health ... reported a 50 per cent increase in demand for its information service”

and

“The number of calls to NHS 24’s 111 Mental Health Hub increased by 436 per cent”.

Those are startling figures, which are presumably placing huge pressure on the system. We might not have measured the outcomes, but we know something about the scale of the demand that there is.

Do you want to tell us a bit more about the qualitative information that you got from the focus groups that you met and what that told you about their experience?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay, but is it therefore possible that that spend was deprioritised?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That is a theme that we will return to during the course of the morning. I turn to Colin Beattie, who has some questions to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

I am afraid that I am going to bring us back to the institutional architecture and all that. One of the things that I take from the report is the question of where the IJBs are in all of this. There is a lot of attention on the health boards’ outcomes and the local authorities’ outcomes, but the IJBs are supposed to straddle the work of those bodies and to pull it together and integrate it. Will you say a word or two about the conclusions that you drew from the work that you did on the role of the IJBs?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

I think that IJBs were described in Parliament just last week as being quite a mixed bag. I do not know whether you have discerned this from your auditing work, but is it the case that, in some areas, the IJBs are accountable and are working well, whereas in others they are not? You do not need to name any, but do you get the sense that there are different performances in different parts of the country?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

We are very tight for time. Graham Simpson, you can have the final question, if it is very quick.

Public Audit Committee

“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Do you accept that no minute of that was produced or found?

Public Audit Committee

“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 September 2023

Richard Leonard

The former First Minister said to us:

“Officials have been unable to locate a note of this meeting”.

Public Audit Committee

“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay. I know that Mr Brannen was absolutely clear about pinning responsibility on Mr Mackay. As a committee, our observation was that, at the time of the decision, there appeared to be more hands on the tiller than just Mr Mackay’s. As you say, minister, we know that it was not a ministerial name on the contract, but it did require ministerial authorisation, which makes it important to us to understand who was responsible.

As I say, we are interested to find out what lessons have been learned from that and how we can get more clarity on what was actually a very important decision and one that has become more important with hindsight, as things have progressed.

Public Audit Committee

“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Well, the Government was the only shareholder involved. Anyway, that would be helpful.

I will turn finally to Graham Simpson, who has some more questions to put.