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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 3214 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

You are describing an international phenomenon, but the briefing is about the Scottish Government and its responsibilities. Key message 4 says:

“the Scottish Government has not planned effectively for the potential impact of this ... approach to ASL.”

How do you respond to that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Our principal agenda item this morning is further consideration of the briefing, “Additional support for learning”, which was prepared jointly by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission. I am pleased to welcome representatives of the Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

From the Scottish Government, I welcome Neil Rennick, who is the director general of education and justice; Stella Smith, who is the unit head for additional support for learning; and Clair Henderson, who is the team leader for additional support for learning. Alongside them, from COSLA, are Laura Caven, who is the chief officer for children and young people and the co-chair of the additional support for learning project board, which we might have some questions about over the course of this morning; Suzanne McLeod, who is a policy manager in the employers team; and Joanna Anderson, who is a policy manager for the local government and finance team.

We would like to put a number of questions to your teams this morning but, before we do so, I invite the director general to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Before we move on, I go back to a fundamental point that the Auditor General made when he gave evidence before the committee on 19 March. He said that there had been

“an almost eightfold increase in the number of children and young people who need additional support for learning.”

He added:

“However, that is not reflected in how councils are funded for their education service.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 19 March 2025; c 7-8.]

Do you accept that criticism, director general?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

If you will forgive me for saying so, there is a bit of an air of complacency about what you have said. On 19 March—just a few weeks ago—the Auditor General also said:

“there now needs to be a fundamental review of how the system is operating and whether it is meeting the needs of children and young people”.—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 19 March 2025; c 23.]

That sounds like a pretty fundamental challenge to the way in which the provision of additional support for learning is being funded, how the funds are being distributed and the extent to which the monitoring and data collection process is working properly. Do you accept that criticism?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Do you also accept the conclusion that it is

“difficult to assess whether the Scottish Government, councils and their partners are planning for and providing the appropriate support to meet pupils’ needs, in line with their rights”?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Key message 1 is about the context in which you are operating and delivering the services. It talks about an “eightfold increase” in the number of pupils receiving additional support for learning, so there has been a huge rise in the scale of demand for such support. The gender breakdown shows that boys are more likely than girls to need additional support in our school system, and there is a contrast between the least deprived areas and the most deprived areas—the requirement for additional support in the most deprived areas is twice as high as it is in the least deprived areas. Again, to confirm, do you accept those findings as being an accurate assessment of where we are?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. You have told us about the recommendations that have been taken forward and have acknowledged the findings of the briefing by the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission, but, for the record, does the Scottish Government accept its findings, conclusions and key messages?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 14th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee.

Under the first agenda item, members of the committee are invited to decide whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee [Draft]

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 1 May 2025

Richard Leonard

But are you the subject of audit by Audit Scotland?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee [Draft]

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 1 May 2025

Richard Leonard

They sound very thorough. I will put the same question to Craig Naylor. As a smaller organisation—compared with the Mental Welfare Commission, for example—what is your perspective on the audit, both internal and external? Is it disproportionate? Is it overly burdensome?