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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 November 2025
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Displaying 3464 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

I welcome everyone back to the meeting for consideration of agenda item 3, which is on the section 23 report on the national health service in Scotland in 2023. I welcome our witnesses for this evidence session. We are joined by the Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle. Good morning, Auditor General. The audit director, Cornilius Chikwama, is back with us for this session. You are very welcome, Cornilius—good morning. Leigh Johnston, a senior manager at Audit Scotland, is also joining us, as is Martin McLauchlan, who is an audit manager at Audit Scotland.

We are a little bit up against the clock this morning, Auditor General, but, before we get to our questions, I invite you to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

I am going to kick off with a question that relates to the last point that you made, which was your critique that there is not really a long-term national vision for the national health service in Scotland. We have a new Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care in post. It is not your job to advise Government ministers what to do, but in the context of the job that you do have, what do you think the benefits would be of there being a clear national vision for the national health service? What effect would that have on the ability of boards to deliver the services that we need them to deliver?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you for painting that bigger picture. That is a useful way to start the evidence session. I invite Graham Simpson to put to you some questions that follow on from that starting point.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks, director general. Over to you, Mr MacRae.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. On that last point, it would be useful to have sight of the actions that you have undertaken and understand the progress that you have made on those. It would be helpful for the committee to see that.

I hear what has been said about the role of WICS and what it has done to bring in extra revenue, but the focus of the section 22 report is on conduct, behaviour, appropriate action and so on. I think that reference was made to the governance framework, which, as I understand it, was last reviewed in April 2022. Kind of ironically, that is the start of the period that is under scrutiny by Audit Scotland, which has turned up some quite concerning findings.

The Auditor General description to us of WICS’ arrangements was of

“significant weaknesses in financial management and governance”.—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 8 February 2024; c 2.]

He believed that those fell “far short” of what was expected. He identified issues that really stood out for him because he had never or rarely seen the like before in a public body. We will get into some of that this morning.

However, if

“Governance is the over-arching structure and strategy that provides accountability and direction, and influences the behaviours and culture within WICS”,

which is the very first sentence of WICS’ governance framework, how have we got to the situation that is reported in this section 22 report?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Mr Rathjen, there is doubt precisely about whether it was in force. I do not think that there is any doubt that it was on the website. I do not think that there is any doubt that a written document exists. However, there is a huge question mark over whether the standards of governance, the standards of behaviour and the systems that were in place match up to the intention that is set out in the governance document.

I will bring in other members of the committee but, before I do, I want to check something off with you. The introduction to the governance framework, which was reviewed in April 2022, says that the power of the Scottish ministers to direct the Water Industry Commission for Scotland

“is confined to matters relating to the WICS’ financial management and administration.”

Has a minister been involved in what has happened here?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

But she was not involved, for example, in signing off the authorisation that Mr Rathjen gave to the £77,000 Harvard Business School course.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Maybe the director general could answer that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay.