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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
Graham Simpson is trying my patience, but he has persuaded me that he has one short question to put, for which we are looking for one short answer. Graham, over to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much indeed, Mr Miller. Just to be clear, the audit that we are considering is for the financial year 2023-24. You referred a couple of times to 2022. That crops up in the report, but this is an audit of the most recent financial year, in which Audit Scotland concluded that there are issues around
“risk and uncertainty”
and
“governance arrangements and internal controls”.
So my first question to you, Mr Miller, is: do you accept the findings of the Audit Scotland section 22 report?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you.
I turn to some of the governance issues that are highlighted. One thing that has taken some time to come to fruition is a framework agreement between the Scottish Government and FMPG. The most recent iteration of that was published in, I think, October 2024. It was an attempt to codify people’s roles and responsibilities and to ensure that people understood that FMPG, while operating as a shipyard and competing in the commercial sector, is nonetheless a non-departmental public body and is expected to comply with things such as the Scottish public finance manual.
Mr Irwin, that framework agreement sets out clearly that your responsibilities as the accountable officer include the requirements of propriety and good financial management. There are questions about what happened during the financial year 2023-24 at FMPG under your watch. How do you respond to that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
Okay. Let me look, then, at the role of the strategic commercial assets division of the Scottish Government. According to the framework agreement, the division has responsibility,
“including financial and operational and when appropriate intervening”.
When I read the minutes of the board meetings—although no minutes of board meetings have appeared on the FMPG website since 30 May 2024, which is quite remarkable—I saw that the board meetings are attended by members of the Scottish Government’s strategic commercial assets division. Do they not have a responsibility for the failures of governance and internal control?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
I am anxious to understand this. If it is set down in black and white in a written agreement, either there has been negligence or the agreement has not been followed; alternatively, there has been a misrepresentation of what happens on the ground.
Mr Cook wants to come in.
09:45Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
Okay. We will get into the detail of some of those questions shortly.
Can I just ask another question, slightly cheekily, perhaps? I should declare my trade union interests. The framework agreement talks about a
“Trade Union Representative being present and contributing to relevant items at Board meetings”.
Why is it not relevant for a trade union to have a view on issues that come up in the board minutes, such as health and safety, environment and security, or the intake of apprentices? Why is it not rightly in the domain of the trade unions to be involved in those discussions? Are the company’s financial position, the business plan and progress with vessels 801 and 802 not of concern to the trade unions and workforce in the yard?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
Is the trade union representative in the room for the whole of the board meeting or are they brought in at a certain point?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
That is Mr Logan.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
Do you mean 7 February?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 5 February 2025
Richard Leonard
We are up against the clock, but the deputy convener has some important final questions to put to you. Over to you, Jamie.