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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the 18th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. We have apologies from the deputy convener, Jamie Greene.

Under agenda item 1, does the committee agree to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Before I bring in Graham Simpson, I want to turn to something else. We are not the police; we are the Public Audit Committee, but we can reflect on some of the evidence that was presented to an employment tribunal in an unfair dismissal claim by the former project director, which was convened in June 2024.

In paragraph 29 of your report, you say—you also said it in your opening statement—that it was

“clear there was a mismanagement of funds”.

You say that that is why the police chose not to proceed. However, the evidence that was captured in the employment tribunal’s extended reasons referred to an internal audit. As it was an audit, it very much has provenance, and it is right for the committee, and you as the Auditor General, to address the points that it raised.

The internal audit, which reported on 31 May 2023, raised two quite striking points, which, in my view, go beyond the mismanagement of funds, because it concluded that there were

“false representations by words, or writing or conduct”.

It also said that

“the intention to deceive was established.”

The audit said that there was “no financial loss”, so there was, technically speaking, no fraud, but an “intention to deceive” and “false representations” are extremely damning conclusions to reach in an internal audit report, are they not?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Paragraph 30 of the section 22 report makes the point that the external consultant appeared to be “managing the project director”. You would expect it to be the other way round and that the project director at the college would manage and direct the consultant. That is quite extraordinary, is it not?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

There are big questions about transparency, and why there are so many big questions about it is what underlies the committee’s concern.

At the end of the report, you take us into the terrain of accounts directions from the Scottish Funding Council on something that the committee has previously taken evidence on—the job evaluation process for non-teaching grades, although I think that you mentioned middle management as well as other jobs in the college sector. The committee’s question is why that is included in the report.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

The job evaluation exercise has not yet been concluded so, although I recognise what you say about the technical issues around accounting and how the accounts of Forth Valley College—and of individual colleges across the sector, I presume—are produced, we are still waiting for the outcome of the exercise and what that means in financial terms, albeit that I think that the Scottish Government has given an undertaking that it will fund any additional costs that arise from the process.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. You have undertaken to supply further information for the committee’s due consideration, so we look forward to receiving what you are able to release to us—that will be helpful. The committee will need to consider our next steps. There are some unanswered questions that even you have not been able to answer, so we will need to consider how best we can address them. For the time being, Auditor General, I thank you for leading the evidence giving this morning. I also thank Mark MacPherson, Derek Hoy and Michael Speight for their contributions.

11:09 Meeting continued in private until 11:49.  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

That was in April 2023, I think.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I think that the creation of a private company in which the project director became a director and shareholder dates to April 2023.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is consideration of “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”, which is a section 22 report. I am pleased to welcome our four witnesses, who join us in the room. We are joined by the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle—good morning; Mark MacPherson, audit director at Audit Scotland; Derek Hoy, senior manager at Audit Scotland; and Michael Speight from Forvis Mazars, who is the auditor who carried out the initial audit work.

We have some questions to put to you on the report, Auditor General, but before we get to those, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of Forth Valley College”

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Auditor General. That is a useful introduction to the report and to our question areas. First, I turn to the delay. Your report is a section 22 report for the financial year 2022-23, but you published it in May 2025. Could you elaborate on the complexities that you have referred to? It seems to the committee that there was an inordinate delay in carrying out the audit and signing off the report.