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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 June 2025
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Displaying 3234 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

I heard that mentioned.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

I am sorry if it took me a wee while to get there.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

I want to take the committee back in the bill to the first purpose of using this power, which is

“to maintain or advance standards in relation to ... restoring, enhancing or managing the natural environment ... preserving, protecting or restoring biodiversity”.

The bill says that the power can be used only in that area and in certain other areas, which I will not go through again—they are on the record. None of the purposes are about stripping out and removing environmental protections from an area that needs them. If an area needs those protections, the Government will not be allowed to strip them out, given that purpose in the bill.

I fundamentally disagree with the word “gut”—the bill will absolutely not give anyone the power to do that. In order to change the regulations, a Government would need to have legitimate reasons that were grounded in enhancing and managing the natural environment. The power is focused on improving biodiversity and managing the environment in a way that is nature positive; it is not about stripping, gutting or anything like that. As I said, maybe our communication on this has not been strong enough. That is the reason that the power is in the bill.

Last week, you heard from Brendan Callaghan of Scottish Forestry on that point. He said:

“If there is no power for ministers to amend regulations, any minor amendment has to be made through primary legislation. The opportunities for doing that are quite limited, given the parliamentary schedule”

and how long it takes to get legislation through. He said:

“It is about good administration.”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs and Islands Committee, 28 May 2025; c 37.]

It is about agility, responsiveness, working with changing conditions in a way that reacts to them and working with the data and the evidence that are put in front of us, so that it will not take years for us to take action.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

I am not quite sure how to answer that. The fact remains that the Scottish Government has responsibility for inshore areas and the UK Government has responsibility for offshore areas.

That exemplifies why it is important that the UK Government, as well as the Scottish Government, takes into account the net zero goals and the biodiversity goals. Interoperability between the four nations is extremely important, because biodiversity does not have boundaries—species do not have boundaries. We all have to work together to—

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

When I was preparing for this, it was put to me that the simplest way to deal with this was to have a bespoke power for Scotland. If we do not have that, the standards and the legislation that we have, which are associated with EU legislation, will, in effect, be frozen at the time of the UK’s exit from the EU, and we will not be able to adapt beyond that. That is why we are looking to the bill to fill that gap. It means that we will be able to adapt to future circumstances and even to some present circumstances, many of which I outlined earlier.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

Good environmental status is a UK-wide endeavour, if that answers your question.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

Yes. In my response to Emma Harper, I explained why such alignment could be very important. Obviously, we would want there to be alignment so that we do not have a gap. Guidance is, of course, not legally binding, but it is sensible to provide it if there is a gap. I will take advice from my official, who looks as though she might have something to add.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

Part 2 of the bill will give us flexibility around that and will bring it into line. It is agnostic about the technologies.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

You have sort of answered your own question in that the most likely circumstance in which the Scottish Government would need to consider secondary legislation would be to align with a UK environmental outcome report, and that would probably happen in relation to the marine environment. The UK Government has legislative competence in the Scottish offshore region, but the Scottish ministers have legislative competence in the Scottish inshore region, so there could be a need for alignment there.

As you said, it is important—especially for renewable energy developments—that there is consistency. There has to be a degree of interoperability. We do not want to be bound by a false boundary because of who has the power.

If two regimes have fundamentally different legal requirements, there might not be an option but to pursue legislative change. Again, that part of the bill is about future proofing, given that we do not know what developments will be on the table in the future. We want to be able to be responsive and to work with the UK Government to align on issues where a lack of alignment might be a barrier to any deployment, which we would not want to be the case.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

Let me take that away.