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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 December 2025
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Displaying 3584 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

I understand that, convener. You say that it is difficult for you to do your job, but I would not be doing my job if I did not ensure that we protect devolution in absolutely everything that comes across my desk from the UK Government.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

You are creating potential scenarios in which the UK Government acts in an area of devolved competence and you are asking how we would interact with that. That is why it is important that we have the consent mechanism. I cannot possibly answer that question at the moment, but Joanna Dingwall might be able to help. Maybe I do not understand your question.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Clauses 2 to 10 are the ones with which we have issues.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

I am just double checking that I have got that right. It is part 2, clauses 2 to 10.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

A general point is that, because we cannot foresee what might happen if we did not have consent, or if we were not even merely consulted—again, I think that “consult” is a very woolly term, and we not should sign up to being consulted; we should have consent—we could not, case by case, figure out the consequences that might arise in whatever scenario there was. Without having consent, Parliament would not have the ability to scrutinise the consequences of a decision that was being made in which we were not included.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

At present, clause 9 provides the power for the secretary of state to make regulations in relation to genetic resources, including benefit sharing, enforcement and conflict avoidance. That may apply to devolved matters, and there is currently no requirement in the bill to secure the consent of Scottish ministers for the secretary of state to act in those areas that are within devolved competence.

The fix would be to put in the bill a provision that the secretary of state would seek the consent of the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament. I have had a meeting with the UK minister to outline why that is so important.

Will that impact on a lot of our activities? No, but the fundamental bedrock is to ensure that the UK Government does not act in a way that overrides devolved competence, so that is what we are seeking.

My Scottish Government legal colleague has asked to come in.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

That is true. We are not a signatory because we are not a nation state. We support the aims of the BBNJ agreement and are working hard with the UK Government to support ratification, but your fundamental point is absolutely correct. I was not at the negotiations on the BBNJ. We do not have a seat at the table of the conference of the parties. We rely on the UK Government to give us information about how it is negotiating and what is it is negotiating about.

We have no issues with the BBNJ agreement, but we have to make sure that, when it is enacted by the UK Government, we have consent in relation to the devolved areas in which we have an interest. That is the least that we should expect.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

That is why it is important that the Scottish Government has a presence at any conference of the parties, wherever that might be. Before the UK Government goes to negotiate at a COP—at COP30 last month, for example—it will give us an indication of how it is negotiating. When you are at COP, the hope is that you are at least able to find out from officials on the UK ministerial team how the negotiations are going.

It is not very official and not very concrete, unfortunately. We do not have a particular constitutional role in the UK negotiations. However, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Welsh and Scottish Governments usually attend the conference of the parties, and we all have meetings with the UK Government ahead of attendance. I would prefer it if those discussions with the UK Government were formalised.

As it stands, the UK Government makes decisions as to what it can sign up to on behalf of the whole UK. I would like the Welsh and Scottish Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive to be more involved in those agreements but, as it stands, they are not. How much the devolved nations are included also depends on the flavour of the UK Government. Ahead of COP30 in Brazil, we had a certain amount of sight on the UK’s negotiations, and we expect that respect between the devolved Governments and the UK Government to continue.

The fundamental problem with the BBNJ bill is that, when it was put together, there was a complicated mix. We heard about rocket launches, carbon capture and storage and all sorts of things that may or may not happen in those areas beyond jurisdiction. It is a complicated mix of devolved and reserved impacts. That is why it is important that, as we agree to the BBNJ bill and there is legislative consent, we are absolutely satisfied as a Parliament and as a Government that we will not have situations in which future secretaries of state could make decisions on what happens in the areas that affect devolved competence.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

I suppose that the provision of area-based management tools, such as MPAs, would be a component of that. That is why it is so important that we have consent.

I do not know whether I can answer the question about HPMAs, but, as Douglas Lumsden has pointed out, fisheries management tools are the domain of the Scottish Government and it is for the Scottish Parliament to scrutinise what is happening in that area. I do not think that that potential scenario is likely to happen.

In effect, marine protection is a power that sits with the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government, so we would not want to see a UK Government minister having powers over marine protection.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Gillian Martin

That is why it is important that the Scottish Government has a presence at any conference of the parties, wherever that might be. Before the UK Government goes to negotiate at a COP—at COP30 last month, for example—it will give us an indication of how it is negotiating. When you are at COP, the hope is that you are at least able to find out from officials on the UK ministerial team how the negotiations are going.

It is not very official and not very concrete, unfortunately. We do not have a particular constitutional role in the UK negotiations. However, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Welsh and Scottish Governments usually attend the conference of the parties, and we all have meetings with the UK Government ahead of attendance. I would prefer it if those discussions with the UK Government were formalised.

As it stands, the UK Government makes decisions as to what it can sign up to on behalf of the whole UK. I would like the Welsh and Scottish Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive to be more involved in those agreements but, as it stands, they are not. How much the devolved nations are included also depends on the flavour of the UK Government. Ahead of COP30 in Brazil, we had a certain amount of sight on the UK’s negotiations, and we expect that respect between the devolved Governments and the UK Government to continue.

The fundamental problem with the BBNJ bill is that, when it was put together, there was a complicated mix. We heard about rocket launches, carbon capture and storage and all sorts of things that may or may not happen in those areas beyond jurisdiction. It is a complicated mix of devolved and reserved impacts. That is why it is important that, as we agree to the BBNJ bill and there is legislative consent, we are absolutely satisfied as a Parliament and as a Government that we will not have situations in which future secretaries of state could make decisions on what happens in the areas that affect devolved competence.