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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 June 2025
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Displaying 3234 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

This is where I need some legal advice. If it is okay, I will hand over to Stewart Cunningham, who has the detail on that.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

—but it is an indicator. Look at the fish species that we do not see in the more southern Scottish waters but that we see in Ms Wishart’s constituency—things that we are finding in different parts of Scotland. That is an indication that climate change is real. If we have the flexibility that part 2 of the bill gives us, we will be able to respond to it in an agile way.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

The targets are important in that regard. I mentioned to Beatrice Wishart the ability under the legislation for the targets to be changed, although they do not have to be reviewed every 10 years. Whether those targets are working or not, they are subject to parliamentary scrutiny—and, of course, there is all the reporting that is associated with the biodiversity strategy and all the questions that we have in the Parliament. A robust parliamentary system will scrutinise the use of all the powers in the bill, and, as I have said, the purposes for which the powers can be used are built into the bill. I think that they are robust.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

The current regulations have no powers to remove certain features from the reasons for designating a site—that is the issue. The bill will give us the ability to do that and to be responsive to changes in the environment. The example that I have just given is a real-world example of how a site being designated as a European site freezes it in time; that designation was fine for then, but, 20 or 30 years on—whatever it might be—the forest is adapting to climate change, and adapting more generally, too. This is not a case of there being an invasive species; these are naturally occurring changes in the forest. That is a real-world example of where we could be quite fleet of foot in changing the designation of a site, instead of having to wait years to do that. After all, nature itself does not wait.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

It will allow us the flexibility, in the future, to adapt to changing technologies, changes in evidence and environmental impacts that we see that need a quick response. I cannot predict what those will be. That is why the power is not prescriptive—we do not know what will happen. We are talking about nature and biodiversity, and others have mentioned invasive species and the threats that they pose to particular habitats.

We know that climate change, in particular, is having a severe effect. Look at the overwintering geese—they used to overwinter in the south of Scotland and now they overwinter in Orkney and Shetland. Maybe I do not want to get in to the geese situation—

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

Public bodies already have duties in this area. The Wildlife and Natural Environment (Scotland) Act 2011 made it a requirement for public bodies to report on their compliance with the biodiversity duty. That has been happening for 14 years. Every three years, all of Scotland’s public bodies have to produce such a report, together with an associated action plan. Bodies such as Scottish Water, SEPA, Scottish Enterprise, Registers of Scotland and all the local authorities already have that duty.

If we found that the action plans were not being delivered on, I would be open to investigating that further. My team regularly scrutinises those action plans and the policies that public bodies have set out to address the biodiversity situation. We need to address delivery on the action plans, but public bodies already have a duty in relation to biodiversity.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

I am willing to explore that. If committee members do not feel that the protections that we are putting in place are robust enough we can talk about that, because this is the first stage of the bill process. However, I do not believe that a non-regression clause would be particularly workable or that it would enable us to respond to each case as it comes before us.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

Let me take that away.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

It is not just nice to have; it is important to work towards it, but it is in setting the topic targets that the action actually happens. Let me take that idea away. As I said, Environmental Standards Scotland can already advise us on bringing forward any review of targets.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee [Draft]

Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Gillian Martin

I do not think that they need to be. The goals are already in the biodiversity strategy and they are stated intentions in all the policy documents. They are part of the ambition that we are working towards. My initial reaction is that I do not think that goals and ambitions fit well in legislation, which is the place to put the actions that are associated with those goals.

I am open to suggestions that references to the global biodiversity framework could be part of the criteria for target setting and to suggestions about adhering to standards, but I am not sure how appropriate or meaningful the idea of ambition is.