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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 November 2025
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Displaying 3195 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

John Mason

Would Ms Hamilton accept that I did not say that there was no public benefit?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

John Mason

This group is quite straightforward, with Rachael Hamilton going in one direction and me going in another.

I and many others support the proposals that the Scottish Government has set out in the bill. However, it is important that NatureScot’s wider conservation functions are not diminished in any way and that the administration costs of trapping, grouse shooting and muirburn licences are covered in full by applicants. NatureScot is taking on significant additional licensing functions as part of the bill, and I think that I heard the minister say that NatureScot might need new staff as a result. We do not want NatureScot’s resources for other work to be reduced because of that. Public finances are tight, and if the public purse has to subsidise those licences, it means less money for other important needs. Rachael Hamilton slightly overstates the case when she uses words such as “punish” and “thumbscrews”, but the reality is that money is tight, and £1 extra for subsidising landowners means £1 less for the national health service.

In the context of the climate and nature emergency, we need a strong NatureScot. I understand that NatureScot does not charge for the licensing functions that it administers. However, other organisations, such as the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, already charge for most of their licensing functions. With regard to firearms licence administration, via Police Scotland, the public already bears the cost, to a large extent, of what is largely a private benefit.

In this case, the aim of the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill is explicitly about addressing the illegal persecution of raptors that is associated with grouse shooting and to improve trapping and muirburn practice to prevent damage to public interests. Grouse shooting is largely a private benefit linked to land ownership, so it feels inequitable to many that the public should have to cover the costs of such licences, especially when, in the context of grouse shooting, the legislation is designed to address the long-standing illegal behaviours of some practitioners. The legislation is intended to act as a meaningful deterrent to illegal behaviours and bad practice in land management. If the licence applicant has to pay the administration costs of the licensing service, it could also be argued that they will have greater investment in the process and will focus more on what they are asked to deliver—namely, the licence conditions set by NatureScot for the receipt of a licence to operate trapping, grouse shooting and muirburn.

I gather that there is due to be a licensing review at some point. The minister referred to that when I asked her a question in the chamber in December. It would be good to hear from the minister what her current thinking is on the subject of full cost recovery, the timescale of any review and whether she is minded to support charging for the specific licensing functions that are related to the bill.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

John Mason

Does the minister agree that the figures in the financial memorandum are estimates? In some cases, they appear to be quite clear estimates in relation to the bill that we are discussing, but the estimates relating to many other bills are incredibly rough. Does she accept that a guideline in the financial memorandum is certainly not fixed in stone?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Mason

It was Social Security Scotland, which is aiming for 5.2 per cent. I therefore wonder whether the figure of 11 per cent is okay, or good. How do we judge that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Mason

So, although the financial memorandum says that the implementation cost has been excluded, in effect, it assumes that the present costs will carry on roughly as they are. Is that fair?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Mason

You mentioned IT. In paragraph 62, you refer back to last time that there was

“significant IT modernisation and business change”,

when the cost was £178 million. In fact, it says that that programme

“did not deliver all the aims and benefits originally envisaged”.

Where are we with IT?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Mason

I do not think that the national reserve is referred to in the policy or financial memorandum, although it was in the consultation.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Mason

That would be less than 10 per cent.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Mason

I just wondered whether it was referring to a different figure, or whether I was misreading it.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Mason

I am sorry—that was a little unfair of me. I think that you are saying that that will be one of the factors that you consider when you look at how we might go forward. If one particular scheme could be run easily compared to another scheme that would be complex to run, you would take into account the cost of administration.