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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 September 2025
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Displaying 865 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

In what sense?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

The bill is not about providing leadership for the organisations that currently exist. On the back of the Withers review, we have spent a long time exploring what works well in the system and what does not work so well. The bill provides an opportunity to come at that from a fresh direction.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

I will ask Andrew Mott to deal with the bill as it is drafted, and then I will answer the specific points of your question.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

As Andrew Mott said, we are, in a way, not comparing like with like, because a foundation apprenticeship is not a paid placement. Nevertheless, I absolutely see a role for that type of learning in the later stages of school. The Aberdeenshire model essentially treats a foundation apprenticeship like another higher—it has that status in the curriculum. I referred earlier to the model in Lanarkshire, where HNCs are delivered in sixth year, so that is another possibility. We are open to exploring all that as part of the wide-ranging look at the post-16 landscape, of which the bill that we are discussing is an enabling part.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

I absolutely recognise that observation. Where there is a vacuum, there is no doubt that it is filled with rumour and misinformation. You are right—it is unsettling for people if they are looking at significant change in their working environment and do not entirely understand what that will look like.

Taking that point on board, and recognising that the committee is working on the stage 1 report, I undertake to reflect on how we can better engage with that particular staff cohort. Based on what you have heard me outline, I hope that it is clear that I have done a fair bit of staff engagement and understand how important it is. However, it is fair that people want as many answers as they can get, particularly at this stage when it becomes a bit more real.

We will take that point away, reflect on it and factor it into the discussions that I hope will take place next month.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

Would that we had information of the type that the convener asked for at this stage—I would absolutely want that to be the case, but, in the progression of legislation, challenges sometimes arise, and this is one.

In all honesty, Mr Mason, I share your frustration, because, from the outset, I have felt that there is an absolute need to nail down those numbers, and there is no lack of desire to do so. As Mr Mott has outlined, we have to work through a number of challenges to get an accurate number, but I gave a commitment to the convener that we will bring that back as soon as possible, and Mr Mott will live up to that commitment. My intention is to bring that back to the committee before the stage 1 debate, so that it can form part of the debate.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

I will bring in Alison Martin in a moment to answer that specific point, but I want to go back to your point about £27 million to rearrange the furniture. First, we do not believe that the cost will be in that range; we will see what it looks like. Secondly, it is absolutely not about rearranging the furniture. What would be the point if that was all that we were doing? I hope that I have clearly outlined to the committee the kind of changes that are required to be made and will be made by the bill. I do not agree with you, Mr Mason, that we are rearranging the furniture. This is an opportunity, once and for all, to knock this into the kind of shape that our young people and our economy need. We have to take the opportunity.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

That is a pertinent question because, in recent times, a couple of high-profile training providers have closed, with significant consequences for the individuals with whom they had been engaging.

I will be pulled up by officials, if needs be, on the exact terminology here, because there is an issue with some of the terminology around training providers that has been used in evidence to the committee. I will pick up on that in a moment. I know that the Student Awards Agency Scotland is doing some work on the oversight of training provision. I am referring to private training providers not in the sense of the people who deliver on the apprenticeship front but the training provision that is funded in the college and university space—colleagues will give you the right terminology.

I think that it is reasonable to expect there to be reasonable oversight arrangements in place. However, the team will explain the reasons; this point might go back to Jon Vincent’s ask of the committee. Is that where you are going, Mr Mason?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

I want the team to come in on that, because the reasons for the answer are very technical.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Graeme Dey

Numerically, it would not. In my experience—I have undertaken a lot of engagement—some of the best training provision comes from very small private training providers. I have seen some excellent apprenticeship delivery—real high-end stuff. That is what I mean about the need for a mixed economy.