Seòmar agus comataidhean

We do not have anyone here from the Scottish Government legal directorate. I will write to the committee to outline all the processes, most of which are outlined in the policy memorandum. The committee will be glad to hear that I am not going to read out the entire policy memorandum. I will outline in writing how that process will work. I say to Ms Clark and to others that I am more than happy to continue to have an open-door policy and to listen to and consider what folk have to say about the issues.

We are probably all just a bit jaded this morning.

I will go through the information on what will come into play with regard to supporting the decision. We commissioned the external research to understand the strengths and weaknesses of practice and where improvements can be made. That research is being procured and it will go alongside a literature review. We will actively gather views from stakeholders, including staff and those with lived experience.

The options appraisal will bring stakeholders together to further co-design and analyse different options, which will result in understanding of the desirability and viability of each option. That will help to inform an in-principle decision in autumn 2023. The final phase is the 12-week public consultation to seek views on the proposed approach. That will commence in late 2023, and it will inform a final decision in around April 2024.

I have followed many of the evidence sessions. I will be honest with the committee and say that I have not watched all the sessions, but I have had transcripts and summaries, as the committee would imagine. That is my bedtime reading, Mr Greene.

There is no rush, Ms Mackay.

That is a very pertinent question. I am not a great expert on the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill, but I will give some detail on that in this answer.

As I said earlier, no decision has been taken on whether criminal justice social work will be in or out of the national care service. The Cabinet will take a decision on that at a later point, after all the work that we are doing is complete. Whether it is in or out, there have to be connections, and we have to make sure that those connections are right and that all this works for people.

Some of the scrutiny of the bill has been about structure, but, no matter what, we are all striving to achieve good outcomes for people. No matter whether justice social work is in or out of the national care service, we have to make sure that those connections are right.

As the committee will be aware, the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill is in three parts and focuses on two separate stages of the criminal justice system in Scotland. Part 1 focuses on how custody is used as part of bail and remand decision making in Scottish courts, and it will, among other matters, reform the legal framework within which courts make decisions on individual cases in regard to the use of bail and remand as part of the criminal court process.

Part 2 focuses on how certain release-from-prison custody mechanisms operate, with an emphasis on increasing opportunities for improved reintegration of people leaving prison and improving the support that is provided to them on release in order to reduce the risk of reoffending. The bill also makes provision to provide information on prisoner release to victims support organisations and introduces a permanent power of executive release in emergency situations.

Part 1, which covers some of the areas that the convener describes in her question, is split into four distinct areas. The one that the committee is most interested in this morning is the enhanced role for justice social work and the provision of information to the court. It also covers reform to the legal framework within which bailiff decisions are made, the recording of reasons when bail is refused and how periods of electronically monitored bail conditions affect time served for custodial sentences.

The main thrust of the question, and the main issue that we are looking at today, is the enhanced role for justice social work in the provision of information to the court. The bill has, of course, taken account of the additional work and resource that will be required. The enhanced role will be beneficial, but we must also ensure that the enhanced role for criminal justice social workers matches some of the other roles that social workers have in wider community settings.

Let me give the committee an example—because it is always best to do that—of something that shows that we sometimes have not got the linkages quite right, and why linkages have to be better. The committee will be aware that my officials and I have been talking to a huge number of folk and listening to the voices of those with lived experience about their feelings about social work and social care and support. One of the folk who we listened to was a young guy who is at risk of offending and who has 15 different interventions going on at the moment. Those are not necessarily linked and, based on what that young man told us, it is fair to say that he sometimes feels that he is being pulled from pillar to post and that he does not really know who to trust when he receives advice. No matter whether justice social work is in or out of the national care service, we have to get better outcomes for people who are in situations of that type.

We have a job of work to do to create much better linkages between criminal justice social work, children and family social work, care, support and other areas to get it right for individuals. That is why we are embarking on research and data gathering and, most importantly, listening to the voices of those with lived experiences.

I could probably get myself into a lot of trouble if I tried to redefine the names of folks’ roles at this moment in time. Nevertheless, I am not averse to having such conversations. I get where Ms Stevenson is coming from with regard to some folks mistrusting social workers, but I also have to say that I have seen some very good examples of trust being formed between social workers and the folks whom they support.

I think that the element of mistrust often comes into play because a social worker has come in at a point of crisis rather than prevention. That is why we are currently looking at a number of changes on that front, and we will do further tests of change to see how we can improve things further.

A couple of months back, I met folks from Fife—I intend to visit again, but we have not managed to slot that in yet—who currently have a pilot going on in two areas there. They have given social workers a clean sheet to do what is required to achieve good outcomes for people—obviously within reason, but it is basically a blank sheet.

The pilot is at the very early stages, but it already seems to be having positive impacts on people because social workers have been freed up and have autonomy. They are no longer bound by some of the strictures that were there in the past that could often lead to mistrust. We need to look at that work and the other work that is being done on tests of change.

It goes back to my point about the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. The community social work ethos of freedom and autonomy worked well, but some of the changes that have taken place since then, particularly in the 80s, have drawn us away from that. Let us see what this test-of-change work can do. I think that it will inevitably lead to greater trust.

No. There will be no privatisation of those services. Mr Greene talked of centralisation, and I say to him that the national care service will balance the need for local flexibility by having care boards plan and commission care while providing national consistency through ministers being ultimately accountable.

Why have we moved in that direction? It is because people have told us that they want ministerial accountability. Accountability has been a high priority in the discussions that have been had. You can see from the Feeley review and other work that folks do not feel that people are necessarily as accountable as they should be for the delivery of services.

Quite frankly, people canna believe that I am not accountable for the delivery of social work and social care services in Scotland at this moment. Folk around this table have written to me to intervene in social work and social care situations in their area, which I cannot do, because that is dealt with by other autonomous bodies.

The public has been clear; more than 72 per cent of respondents to the consultation want ministerial accountability. They also want local accountability to be strengthened, which we will achieve. It is not centralisation; it is about national accountability and setting national high-quality standards that should be applied across the board to ensure that postcode lotteries disappear. It is also about local delivery, local flexibility, local innovation and local accountability.

Good morning, and thank you for having me along today to give evidence.

It is fair to say that the national care service is one of the most ambitious reforms of public services. It will end the postcode lottery of care provision in Scotland and ensure that those who need it have access to consistent and high-quality care and support to enable them to live a full life, wherever they are.

People with experience of receiving social care support, and providing it, have been clear that there is an urgent need for change. The bill sets out a framework for the changes that we want to make and allows scope for further decisions to be made. That flexibility will enable the NCS to develop, adapt and respond to specific circumstances over time.

The principles of any new system will be person centred, with human rights at the very heart of social work and support. No decision has been made yet on whether justice social work will be included in the national care service, but we are making provision to enable that and we are considering what the best approach would be.

I acknowledge that, unlike care, justice social work has the unique feature of being court ordered, placing requirements on those in contact with the service and adding different practical considerations. To fully support those involved in the justice system, a holistic approach that recognises the links between offending and other care and support needs is required, whether justice social work is included in the NCS or not.

The work in progress will collate evidence, work with partners to develop options for the future of justice and include a public consultation at the end of 2023, which is a result of the feedback from stakeholders in the consultation. Justice social work staff and people with lived experience will be central to our programme of work.

The NCS will bring changes that will benefit the workforce, too. The importance of staff in the social work and social care sector has never been clearer, and we are fully committed to improving their experience as we recognise and value the work that they do.

We are committed to co-designing and working with people with first-hand experience of accessing and delivering social work and social care to ensure that we have a person-centred national care service that best fits the needs of the people who will use and work in its services, with human rights at its very centre.

I recognise that, sometimes, folks are wary of change; however, others see opportunity. The Cabinet decision will be taken on the basis of evidence that is collated by the sector. I was clear at the cross-party group on social work and I will be clear with the committee today that the social work profession should be—needs to be—at the heart of shaping the future. We need to listen to the profession. That is what I have committed to doing, and it is why I have made all the appearances and visits that I have made: to listen to what folks have to say.