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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 October 2025
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Displaying 1455 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

Dr Fifield, I do not disagree with anything that you have just said, but what I am getting at is that the bill could be enacted, an offence could happen, and the offender’s defence could be that it has stuck completely and utterly with the permissions that it was given. Again, I am not a lawyer, but I would argue that that is a pretty good defence. Surely what we have here is putting the cart before the horse. Do you agree?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

So, updating those permits and licenses would be the priority to take into account things such as the forever chemicals that you mentioned earlier?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

It has been said about the regulatory reform act that there have been very few prosecutions. Is that because people are adhering to the existing legislation and regulation?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

I see that Elspeth is nodding. Simon?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

In that case, it would probably be more logical to deal with modernisation of the permit system before introducing a bill or legislating for something that would overarch a system that, in your opinion, currently does not operate very well.

09:15  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

We would all prefer that some of those things did not happen, but you have talked of a once-in-a-lifetime event. I will play devil’s advocate again. Let us say that the bill passes and is enacted and a once-in-a-lifetime event occurs, which leads to court action. The defence from the folks who have committed the offence is, “Well, we did all of that within the permits that we were given,” and we have not actually modernised the permitting system—

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

Thank you, convener, and let us hope that it is only twice.

You might have got the gist of where I was going, Shivali, with my playing devil’s advocate again. In a situation in which the ecocide bill has been enacted and an offender appears in court and says that they did everything in line with the permitting system, which has not been modernised, how would a court react? I know that it is difficult to guess, but my thoughts are that a court would say, “Oh well, they did everything within the permissions that they had.” It might well be that the overarching ecocide legislation would do nothing, because we had not modernised the permit system around it. Do you have any comment on that, please?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

No, to Shivali, please.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

Can I get this right for the record? You are saying that permitting would not be a defence when it comes to the bill, if enacted.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Kevin Stewart

That is clear. We talked with the earlier panel about some of the existing legislation and regulation, particularly section 40 of the Regulatory Reform (Scotland) Act 2014; we also talked about how the bill could possibly interact with environmental liability regulations. The conversation then drifted on to permits and licensing. Some of you have already said that what might be required is a review of licensing or permissions rather than this overarching bill. Do you have comments about section 40 of the 2014 act, and what do you think about permits and licensing?