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We will make it as easy as possible for folk to engage, and we will continue to listen to what people say about the barriers to engagement that may exist. I canna stress this enough, however: many individuals with lived experience and many organisations, particularly some disabled people’s organisations, want the change to happen yesterday, in effect. That is the reality.

Covid shone a light on some areas where we do not do well for people, and people want to see change now. Many activists with lived experience have been seeking change for 20 or 30 years—even 40 years, in some cases. I had better not name any individuals, as I might get into trouble for being ageist, but a lot of folk have been at this for a long time, and they have put a lot of work and graft into trying to get the change that they think is necessary. Those folks really want things to be done now; they do not want any more delay. I say again: they want movement now. We are doing some things in the here and now to improve things, but folks want to see that change.

We are not seeing many folk shying away from engagement—and that engagement does not have to be through the lived experience experts panel. My officials and I have gone out and engaged with people right across the country, and we will continue to do so. We will take the snippets and the suggestions from everything that we pick up on a daily basis, as well as looking to the suggestions and comments from the panels, stakeholder groups and so on.

Again, at this moment I am not going to commit either way on whether drafts will be issued. However, I will say that, as always, I want to be as co-operative and collaborative in all this work as I possibly can be, not only with the voices of lived experience, stakeholders, local government and the third sector but with the Parliament.

The framework bill is similar to the one that was used to create the national health service. As I have said, it is a big piece of work and it involves probably the biggest reform in this area. I want there to be co-operation and collaboration right across the board. I know that there will be areas where we will agree and others where we will disagree—sometimes greatly. However, as always, I will have my door open and will do whatever is required to achieve the ultimate level of co-operation. Committee members who have worked with me previously will know that that is the case.

It could have huge impacts on the way that people think about care.

We have the ability to create a profession that can attract people. I should expand on the career progression aspect. Sometimes, we do not make it easy for people to change, swap and be flexible in their careers. Sometimes, it is not easy to move from care to social work or the health service. From talking to young folk who are working in care, I am aware that that is a frustration for them especially. Getting that right, building opportunities and attracting younger folk to the care profession could bring about a real change in the thinking about care and in its culture. That is one impact.

There is a great opportunity to change the way of thinking about care beyond that, which we are trying to do. Many people feel that they are seen as a burden because they require care. That should not be the case. The investment that we are making in care is for the greater good of our society as a whole.

I will give you a language example. I do not like the term “respite” much. That is why we are talking about short-term breaks, and it is one of the reasons why the right to short-term breaks is part of the bill.

There are many changes that can take place with the bill, as is always the case with such bills. Discussions about big pieces of work such as the bill often get folks thinking differently.

It would be daft of me to commit to a timeline on any aspect of the bill for the simple reason, which I have highlighted, that we want to have the voices of people with lived experience and stakeholders at the very heart of all this. Co-design work canna go on forever but, at the same time, we have to enable people to feel that the time that they are taking is right.

It would also be wrong of me to give any indication of timelines for secondary legislation, because those are a matter for Parliament rather than for me. However, I will say that I want to give folks, including those in the Parliament, the ultimate opportunity to scrutinise what we are doing in order to get the secondary legislation right. I know that parliamentary processes can sometimes be onerous, but it is not up to me to decide those timelines.

If the committee wants to discuss some more technical aspects of the process, I will be happy for Ms Kynaston to come in. However, it would be daft of me to commit to timelines, many of which I would have no say over anyway.

Self-directed support is a big bugbear for me, I have to say. It is probably also a bugbear for many of the folk around the table. The legislation on that had cross-party support. It was all done for the best of intentions and all in primary legislation. Unfortunately, folk out there have not stuck with the spirit of the legislation but have tried to find flaws and loopholes in it to deny people their right to self-directed support. Again, there is a postcode lottery across the country in folks’ ability to access self-directed support. That is not good enough.

I have had folk working for a lengthy period on changing the guidance on self-directed support. I think that we will publish the new guidance in the next couple of weeks. That will be helpful in teasing out some of the difficulties that exist, but it will not do everything.

That is one of the reasons why a lot of what we are doing with secondary legislation is important. It means that we can be flexible and adaptable if we do not get the legislation quite right, whereas the legislative vehicle to change a piece of primary legislation is often lacking and it takes a long time. Flexibility and adaptability are the key points on that.

I am not—at all—ruling out putting the right to independent living in the bill, but I want to listen to the Jim Elder-Woodwards of this world about what is required and what we actually need to achieve. Is that best done through primary legislation or through secondary legislation, which has more flexibility and adaptability? I assured Ms Duncan-Glancy that we will look at and listen to what we get from lots of folks like Jim and we will move accordingly.

Yes, in short. We are introducing the new duties to prevent homelessness, including the new duties on public bodies to act to prevent homelessness. Those have to be embedded in the NCS. We need to ensure that interventions are made much earlier than they often are at present, and that there is case co-ordination in order to get it right for folks. We need to do that across services as a whole, not just in the national care service. I am sure that Ms Roddick and the committee are aware that the new duties will be guided by the shared principles of public responsibility to prevent homelessness.

Work has been done over the past few years. I was previously involved in it, and the fact that I have changed jobs does not mean that I do not have a deep interest in ensuring that we get it right on homelessness. The lessons that we have learned from the homelessness and rough sleeping action group and the lived experience panels that we put in place give us, as a Government, and Ms Robison the right information to ensure that our current work leads to real change across the board.

We will look at all of that as we move forward. I have had a fair amount of discussion with Ms Robison, and officials are working together on all aspects of that.

I know that your emphasis is on homelessness prevention, but we also have to look at how care and housing already intersect. I am very proud of the way in which we have moved forward in Scotland with the housing first approach. I do not have the most up-to-date figures, so you will have to excuse me if I get this slightly wrong, but figures from a while back showed that, under the housing first approach, the tenancy retention rate for folks was 90 per cent. Most folk never thought that that would be achievable, so why has it happened? It is about not just the housing aspect but ensuring that care, addiction and mental health services all match up.

In order to prevent homelessness and ensure that we do our level best for people overall, there has to be continued co-operation across the piece to ensure that we do the right thing by each person.

I thank Mr McLennan for that question, which is very important, particularly given what we have gone through over the past two years—not only the pandemic, but the current cost of living crisis and the on-going war in Ukraine.

For many things, we do not have to wait for the national care service to be established, and the Government is working with others at this moment to make improvements. I will give you some examples. There are a lot of things that we can do in the here and now to make improvements and we are taking action to do so. We have committed to increasing spend on social care by 25 per cent by the end of the parliamentary session. That helps lay the groundwork for the national care service. In April, as you know, we set the minimum hourly rate for providing direct adult social care at £10.50 an hour, which was the second pay rise in a year. The Government has also transferred £200 million to local government to support investment in social care, which includes delivery of that uplift.

We are also working with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to progress fair work in the sector. The fair work in social care group has developed a set of recommendations for minimum standards for terms and conditions, which reflect those fair work principles and will look at things such as improving the rates of maternity, paternity and sick pay. Of course, we are doing a lot with partners to assist in recruitment and retention. A lot of things are going on.

I agree with those folks who say that we cannot afford to wait for a national care service in order to make movement in some of those areas, and we will not wait. We will continue to make the right investments to build our social care system in Scotland and do our level best for the social care profession.

There are other ways in which folk can get redress. The complaints and redress system is really important for people and we need to ensure that we listen to people on that front too. We will listen to folk during the co-design work in order to ensure that we get that right.

People feel that some aspects of the complaints and redress system work well, but others do not. We need to look at how we make a change from the bottom up so that people feel that they are actually being listened to, that their complaints are being dealt with appropriately and that the right redress is available.

Again, I say to Mr Balfour and to the committee that we will listen to what folks have to say about the pitfalls and where the system has gone wrong for them in the past, and we will build a system that works for all.

As we move forward with incremental change, we have to continue to listen to organisations. I am pleased that you have already had a number of organisations here this morning, so that you could hear at first hand some of the things that they want to see. Their voices are required for that co-design. I have talked about the expertise of those with lived experience, but there is also the expertise of those folks who work on the third sector’s front line for many groups, including those disabled persons organisations that I mentioned earlier. We pledge to listen as we go along.

Let us be honest about the fact that co-design will have to be done within parameters. However, people understand that and they also understand that certain things might not be achievable. I have faith in people bringing their views to the table and helping us to make the right decisions as we move forward.