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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 November 2025
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Displaying 1285 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

Okay. My next question focuses on the pace of reform. The Parliament voted in 2017 or so to get rid of the Scottish Qualifications Authority and Education Scotland, and we will get the replacements in 2024, seven years later. Following the Stobart review and the OECD review of the transition from the broad general education to the senior phase and the two-term dash, we will get Louise Hayward’s report in May. I really want to know whether that will be a worked-up plan. Will it be ready to implement within this parliamentary session? How long will it take?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

I have one final question, which is about research. Scotland used to punch well above its weight in that area, and we still do, but not as much as we used to. We used to get 15 per cent of the UK research councils’ funding each year, but that amount has now dropped to 12.5 per cent. Why has that happened?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

The minister cannot be happy that we pay workers two different pay rates for doing exactly the same job. Workers who happen to be in the unfortunate position of working in a private sector nursery are paid much less than those in council nurseries. That cannot be right, can it?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

What does “substantially eliminate” mean?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

I am just trying to get a definition of what “substantially eliminate” means. We all thought before that you were going to abolish the gap completely, but now we understand that the position has been refined. We could argue about how that developed, but I am still unclear about how we know whether the gap has been substantially eliminated. Is there a number? Are you expecting the gap to reach a certain level, which you would call “substantially eliminating” it? If so, what is it?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

It is important, however. The attainment gap is massive—enormous—and we were slipping down the international rankings. That is why the OECD report was commissioned, so there was a crisis, and I have to say that the way in which the cabinet secretary presented it sounded incredibly complacent.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

No—the question is about the performance of Scottish universities. What is your analysis of why the amount of funding has gone from 15 per cent of the UK research councils’ funding to 12 per cent?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

No, no—what is your understanding of the reason for that?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

My questions are on the same subject. I recognise all the figures about pay rates and the real living wage, but the differential is causing the challenge. We have all heard anecdotal evidence from private and voluntary sector nurseries that they are losing staff to council nurseries and to other sectors, because staff can get better jobs with better pay elsewhere. That is reducing capacity and having an impact on the flexibility and choice that were supposed to be available through the provision of 1,140 hours.

The minister is right about the fact that private nurseries have other sources of income, but those sources are shrinking, because the state contribution to their work is increasing. The impact that the cross-subsidy has is reducing.

I am alarmed at the thought that the private sector’s capacity will reduce massively because we have two tiers built into the pay system—that has been the design from the beginning. The situation cannot be turned around overnight, because the sum of money is significant, but is there a plan to bring pay rates in the PVI sector into line with those in council nurseries, so that people are not paid different wages for doing exactly the same job?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

There is a difference, though, between sustainable rates and fair rates. Surely, it is just not fair that people get paid much less for doing the exactly the same job. You cannot accept that that is a satisfactory position.