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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 May 2025
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Displaying 935 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Willie Rennie

You are not looking at the whole system, though, are you? You have already decided that you are creating a national care service, which will have ramifications for children’s services. You are not considering services in the round. You have decided that you will take one part out of the system, and you will then decide, as an afterthought, what children’s services are going to do in response to that disruption.

So, you are not looking at things in the round. You have talked an awful lot this morning about co-design. If, in the co-design process—which will presumably include the recipients of services as well as those who provide them—it is decided that it would be better to leave the structure as it is, are you going to undo all this?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Willie Rennie

Not this.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Willie Rennie

That makes my point for me—I am sorry to interrupt, Mr Stewart. You are making this up as you go along.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Willie Rennie

You are already deciding that you will have a big disruption, with a new law to create a national care service, but without even deciding what is going to be in the national care service. That is making it up as you go along.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Willie Rennie

We have got to the nub of the issue about what the barriers to progress are. I think that everybody apart from Vicky Irons accepts that there are problems, but they do not want children’s services to be included in the national care service. The problem that Vicky identified relates to having two employers, two systems and two cultures. I would like to hear from her how that manifests itself and what it means for the recipients of the services.

I would also like to hear from Highland Council whether it has overcome the problem of having two employers through the way that it has organised its services.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Willie Rennie

Would any of those problems be solved by the inclusion of children’s services in the national care service? Vicky Irons believes that they would, but does anybody else agree?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Willie Rennie

That is not what I asked. Would the problems that have been identified by Highland Council and Dundee health and social care partnership be solved by the inclusion of children’s services in the national care service? I know that there are other potential benefits, but that is not what I am asking about.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Willie Rennie

Jude Currie summed it up neatly when she referred to change for change’s sake, and both Jude Currie and Martin Crewe have clearly expressed that there are issues and that change is required but that structural change does not necessarily deliver the change that we require. I will play devil’s advocate, although I agree with everything about that because we have had several evidence sessions that have made it clear that the structure is a diversion from the real challenges that we face. I have heard about leadership and resources from Jude. I would like to have a better understanding of what that actually looks like, what change we require to make those services better, and then what we need to do about it.

Other committee members have, not unreasonably, highlighted the fact that the view of some was, “Just leave us alone and we’ll get on with it and deliver the change.” I do not necessarily agree with that, because everybody accepts that change is required. However, I will play devil’s advocate and challenge you both to say what we need to change and what politicians need to do to help with that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Willie Rennie

Does it make no difference to those who receive the service?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Willie Rennie

Yes, but does it make any difference to the people who receive the service?