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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 November 2025
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Displaying 1285 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Willie Rennie

I thank the witnesses for their clear evidence. I will ask about the interface issue, which you have kind of addressed already. There is a multitude of interfaces with the police, education services and various other bits. You have kind of answered my question on that, and the answer seems to be that the people who you work with are professionals who are trained to work together—in the way that Bob Doris outlined—and who will overcome any of the barriers that politicians frequently want to put in their way. That seems to be—[Interruption.] I am sure that that is what Bob meant. [Laughter.]

I really want to know whether any members of staff who you work with are crying out for this change and saying, “We must have a national care service to overcome the problems”? Is that happening?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Willie Rennie

The change of tone was interesting. You got really passionate about the issues that you face. It is encouraging that that is where your passion is.

What do the proposals for reform do to the individual staff members that you work alongside? Are those staff worried about their jobs? Are they worried about what their position will be? If they are already running a service, are they worried that they might not be doing that any more? What does that do for tackling the issues that you have just spoken about passionately? Perhaps Mike Burns could answer that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

I will start with a question to Wendy Brownlie about funding and pay rates for staff. Why are staff in private and voluntary sector nurseries paid so much less than those in council nurseries?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

Carrie Lindsay, do you think that that is fair? Have you seen staff leaving the private and voluntary sector?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

I have a couple of brief questions about the fee rates for two-year-olds versus those for three and four-year-olds. Some councils, including Argyll and Bute Council, pay a different rate, because they recognise the different ratios and requirements that are determined for two-year-olds. However, some councils, such as Fife Council, offer exactly the same rate for two-year-olds as they do for three and four-year-olds. Why is there no differential in Fife?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

I have one more question. Why are we so terrible at getting two-year-olds to take up their provision?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

That is fine.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

Are staff in private and voluntary sector nurseries leaving because they are not getting paid enough? Is capacity in that sector reducing?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

Having spoken to nurseries, including those in Fife, I know that there is no doubt that they are reducing capacity, because they cannot get the staff. They have constant turnover, partly because jobs elsewhere, including those in council nurseries, are paid so much more. The examples are pretty stark: in Falkirk, a local authority head of centre is paid 71 per cent more than their private nursery manager equivalent, despite working fewer hours. The difference is astonishing, and what is happening is no surprise.

However, this is not really about market forces, is it? In the past, there was the ability to cross-subsidise, because there were fewer state-funded hours and you could see the cross-subsidy working—although it is debatable whether it was fair for private customers to subsidise the state to such an extent. However, if the state is expanding so much that it is now paying the bulk of the revenue to private nurseries, there is no room for cross-subsidy any more. The issue, therefore, is not market forces, but what the state is prepared to pay for that service. I just urge you to consider whether it is fair for the state to discriminate in that way between private and council nurseries. I know, Carrie, that you will be reluctant to say whether that is fair, but the answer is pretty obvious, is it not?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny: Early Learning and Childcare

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Willie Rennie

In the past 12 years, the number of early years education teachers has dropped from 1,500 to 700. Does that not indicate that we are offering just childcare rather than early learning and education?