Seòmar agus comataidhean

Convener, I think that I inadvertently—I apologise for this—praised your amendments in the debate on the previous group, but my comments stand. I think it is really important that all discussions relating to the consultation—and, if necessary, the minutes of meetings—be made available so that people can see how decisions have come about.

Amendments 19 and 41 are simple. The bill says:

“Before ... revising a code of practice the Scottish Ministers must consult ... Scottish Natural Heritage”.

I have to say, minister, that I get confused about this. Is the organisation Scottish Natural Heritage one day and NatureScot the next? You might wish to reflect on the need for continuity with previous legislation, as a result of which the organisation is now referred to as NatureScot—I am sure that your officials will do so.

I also note that Scottish ministers also have to consult

“any other person they consider appropriate.”

I would like to amend that simply by adding the phrase “land managers”, which would make the consultation sufficiently widespread to include anyone who works on and manages land. RSPB Scotland, for example, is a land manager. The phrase would also cover private owners, charities and trusts. Indeed, it could also include people on the front line, who are making all of this work. That would give you a better idea of whether the principle itself works.

I am sure that the minister is going to fire back at me on the Scottish Natural Heritage and NatureScot point. I look forward to that, and I thank the convener for allowing me to speak to the amendments.

Will Colin Smyth give way on that point?

I am pleased to speak to the amendments in my name. I will be careful when I speak to the issues and will not add too many old stories in respect of them. I remember that, when I was much younger, I told my grandmother how to do something. She replied, “Don’t teach your grandmother to suck eggs.” That is the point of amendment 10.

Amendment 10 is in two parts. The first says that, if someone has completed a training course, the authority must give them a licence. The second part seems to have caused a huge amount of consternation. It is based on an amendment that came about in spraying legislation many years ago. I am not sure that members here will remember it. It conferred what were known as grandfather rights in that people who had been practitioners of spraying were allowed to continue without a requirement that they sit a training course on it. That seems entirely reasonable. For members’ information, I set the figures in the way that I did because I thought that a 40-year-old would probably be around halfway through their career, and if they had done 10 years of practice they would probably know what they were talking about.

I am afraid that the minister misrepresented my point. It is about having a combination of the two factors. The requirement is that people must have been born before 31 December 1983 and have been practising the use of traps for 10 years.

It is a difficult situation, because everyone wants to send people on a course. I certainly remember that, when I left the Army, I was sent on a deer stalking certificate course, for the purpose of deer control. It was a full-day course. It was pretty expensive but pretty informative, and I was given a shooting test at the end. I know that the person who ran the course had less experience in deer management than I had, because they had been on the planet for fewer years than I had been practising that skill. That made it difficult for me to understand the reasons for my having to do the course. The shooting test, which involved spending an interesting day on the range, was more complicated for me to pass, and so to qualify to shoot four-legged animals, than my annual weapons test in the Army, which had allowed me to shoot two-legged animals.

This is my point: we are taking people to one side for training but we are really teaching them to suck eggs. We are impinging on their knowledge and being rude to them. If I were to introduce a bill that required every single member of the Parliament to complete a course in order to be a politician here, someone who had been here for a considerable time—perhaps even the First Minister, or the minister sitting at the table—would have to be taught the basics of being a politician. That would not be right.

That is why I lodged amendment 10, which is a simple amendment. I think that it is wrong for the minister to have said that, under my amendment, someone who was born before 31 December 1983 would obtain a licence. No, they would not. They would also have to have 10 years’ hands-on experience, with dirt under their fingernails from actual work—not dirt on their fingers from reading books. It is dangerous for the Parliament to get to the stage of teaching people to suck eggs.

Amendment 11, in my name, would allow the minister to vary the provision on evidence if it proved to be unsatisfactory. It would be a stopgap for the minister.

As for the other amendments in the group, I will listen with interest to Rachael Hamilton’s comments on amendment 10 and why she thinks it appropriate to remove the age requirement.

I also think that it would be dangerous to put amendment 113 through. We accept that wild birds are used for sporting purposes. I understand that Colin Smyth is against that, and I respect his views on the matter, but it is a fact of life that such activity is allowed, and while that is the case, we must give people the legal tools to carry out their job.

You cannot stipulate the number of traps that will be needed, as that would just be overbearing. That is why I think that amendment 115 does not work. As for amendment 116, I agree with the minister that 10 years is sufficient for refresher courses. All you will do if you make the period five years is spawn a whole industry to run tests and examinations.

I would have some sympathy with amendment 117 if Mr Smyth could tell me what the number in question would be used for. If he can tell me why he needs to know, say, the number of rats that have been killed in a specific trap in a specific place and how that information would be used to benefit the natural environment, I might be able to consider the amendment. Until he does so, though, I do not see the reason for it, because it would just result in another list of figures that would disappear into the archives of NatureScot, never to see the light of day again.

Finally, I turn to amendment 118. I have already made it clear that I do not believe in teaching people how to suck eggs. Does the member honestly believe that people who use traps do not take their responsibility seriously? Does he honestly believe that that sort of thing is not done to the highest welfare standards? As I have said to the committee before, I have never met people who go out there just to be cruel and barbaric in how they do these things. Frankly, if I ever do meet them, I hope that they feel the full force of the law, and I will make sure that I take part in their conviction. However, it does not sum up the people who use traps—gamekeepers and so on.

Will the minister give way?

Can I just finish, minister?

Once the appeals process had been exhausted with the person or the organisation that had refused the licence, I would be concerned if the only outcome was judicial review.

I am happy to give way to the minister.

I thank the minister for clarifying that. I have been involved in appeal processes against NatureScot or Scottish Natural Heritage, not only as an individual but through representing constituents in the Parliament. The system and the reasons around it are fairly opaque, so if that is the way that the minister goes—

Yes, I will.

I am grateful to the minister for clarifying the position, because that might get around the concerns that members of the committee have raised.

Just to clarify, without talking any more, I will press amendment 179, but I will not move amendment 18 at this stage. I will bring it back at stage 3, once it has been amended to address the minister’s concerns.

I have listened to the evidence that the committee has taken, and I think that Karen Adam’s comments during our evidence taking were apposite in a lot of ways. However—let me be clear—the use of cable restraints and snaring is highly regulated in legislation, and it requires a great deal of formal training. That training has taken us away from where we were many years ago, when I was younger and there were no restrictions on where you could place snares. In those days, you could place them where animals could get hung up and where they could end up—inadvertently, in most cases—strangling themselves to death.

That is not where we are now. Now, snares are set in locations where that cannot happen; they hold the animal in place, and, because of the stops, the animal cannot be strangled. The stops also work if the animal is caught in the wrong place.

The snares that we have now also give you the ability to discriminate with regard to the animals that you kill. Once you have caught the animals, you can, before you dispatch those that you want to dispatch, release the non-target animals by cutting the snare to free them. The fact that snares are also required to be regularly checked and that every snare must be identified and subject to inspection means that the activity is highly regulated.

I understand why people take issue with this, but it is my opinion and my experience that properly set and managed snares hold the animal to allow its humane dispatch—or its release, if it is not a target animal. There is no reason why non-target animals should end up being killed. I believe that most—in fact, nearly all—people who use snares know that they are taking on a huge responsibility, and they want to ensure that the animals that they catch are not subjected to suffering.

As the minister has rightly said, there are other ways of doing this. For example, those of us who have been out at night with lamps know that foxes become lamp shy, and you can clear a massive area just by turning on the lamp. Thermal sights work, but they are not always appropriate, because you cannot always see the backdrop. Shooting does not always solve everything. Let us be honest: when you fire a gun, you do not always kill what you want to kill. We know that, with snares, you can hold the animal and dispatch it very quickly.

As for the minister’s comment that all of those things can be done at night, I am sure that Jim Fairlie knows that, if you are protecting a lambing field and looking after lambs all day and all night, you do not have the time to spend all night chasing foxes that are trying to work their way in. A snare or cable restraint gives you that ability.

We also have to decide whether to consider our work programme in private at our next meeting. Do members agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.