Seòmar agus comataidhean

Before I go to the minister, I would like to make a couple of comments. I started off this morning probably in the same position as Monica, not sure that a motion to annul would be the correct way forward. I have listened to the comprehensive evidence that we have taken this morning, which is quite interesting. I lived and breathed as convener of the REC Committee through the passage of the Transport (Scotland) Bill in 2019. I could probably quote some of the amendments and I saw where some of the issues were. The issue that we are discussing today was never flagged up then—it is not something that we saw—and the committee and the Parliament subsequently supported the franchising system.

Today’s meeting has demonstrated the Parliament when it is at its best, which is when we are doing something called post-legislative scrutiny. We are looking at something and saying to ourselves, “We’re not sure about this. We’re not sure if this is the right decision.” That is where we are at. Just because somebody is doing something elsewhere, following them and doing it in Scotland is not necessarily the right way to go.

I am not convinced by any of the arguments today that a motion to annul would delay the franchising system. In fact, I think that it will strengthen it. I think that it will make it better because everyone will buy into it and support it.

I do not want to put words into your mouth, minister, but you said that you were acutely aware of the feelings of the committee and that you would consider them afterwards. However, it will be up to the Cabinet, as a Cabinet Government, to decide whether changes can be made if the statutory instrument goes through. There is no guarantee to the committee that changes will be made if we allow it to go through. Things change—politics change—and therefore we cannot be sure of that.

For those reasons, and because I have very large concerns that what we are doing might not be the right way to go, I will support those members who said that passing a motion to annul is the right thing to do. I put on record that it is a testament to this committee that the process of post-legislative scrutiny of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, which is effectively what we have done, has been effective.

I now pass to the minister before I ask Mr Lumsden to sum up.

Yes. It is up to you whose intervention you take, but Bob Doris was first, followed by Monica Lennon, if that helps.

I notice that members are trying to intervene. Before we started this discussion, I promised that I would not look at the clock, but it is inappropriate not to look at the clock occasionally. Members and the minister can infer from that what they wish. Minister, it is up to you to take any interventions that you feel are appropriate.

We resume with agenda item 3. I welcome everyone to our stage 2 proceedings on the Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill, including the non-members of the committee who are here for this item.

The deadline for completion of stage 2 is today. The committee has permission to continue the meeting for as long as it takes to complete our consideration.

I remind members of the procedure. Our main working documents for today are the bill, the marshalled list and the groupings. I say to anyone who is observing our proceedings that those documents are available on the Scottish Parliament’s bill page. I will call each amendment individually in the order shown on the marshalled list. The member who lodged the amendment should either move it or say “Not moved” when it is called. If that member does not move it, any other member who is present may do so.

The groupings document sets out the amendments in the order in which they will be debated. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. The member who lodged the first amendment in the group will be called to speak to and move that amendment and to speak to any other amendments in that group. I will then call other members with amendments in the group to speak to—but not to move—their amendments, and to speak to other amendments in the group if they so wish. I will then call other members who wish to speak in the debate—if you wish to speak, you should try to catch my eye or indicate to the clerk. I will then call the Acting Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Energy, if she has not spoken already in the debate, and finally I will call the member who moved the lead amendment in the group to wind up and say whether they wish to press or withdraw that amendment.

If a member wishes to withdraw an amendment after it has been moved and debated, I will ask whether any member present objects. If there is an objection, I will have to put the question on the amendment. Later amendments in the group are not debated again when we reach them in the marshalled list. If they are moved, I will put the question on them straight away.

Only committee members may vote, and voting is done by a show of hands. I ask committee members to please keep their hands raised for long enough that the clerk can see them, so that the individual votes can be recorded. I will also put formally the question on each section of, and schedule to, the bill as we come to them.

I hope that that brief run-through was helpful. I know that most—in fact, all—-members of the committee have taken part in stage 2 consideration before, but a description is often helpful for people who are watching online.

We move to the marshalled list. The clerks have suggested that I read out the preamble. At introduction, the Presiding Officer determined that a financial resolution was not required for this bill. Under rule 9.12.6C, the Presiding Officer has determined that the costs associated with amendment 19 would in themselves exceed the current threshold for a bill to require a financial resolution. Therefore, in terms of stage 2 proceedings, amendment 19 may be moved and debated but may not be agreed to in the absence of a financial resolution.

Section 1—Scottish carbon budgets

Amendment 38, in the name of Douglas Lumsden, is grouped with amendments 39, 40, 13, 23, 48 and 57.

As no other member wishes to speak, I go to the cabinet secretary.

The cabinet secretary has come to an end, so I ask Graham Simpson to wind up and indicate whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 1.

The question is, that amendment 51 be agreed. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

That ends stage 2 consideration of the bill.

The stage 3 debate will be held next week, and amendments for stage 3 must be lodged by Friday 1 November at noon.

I thank all the committee members for taking on the exceptional extra work required to get us to where we are today at fairly short notice, on a short-notice bill. I also thank those who gave evidence to the committee to help us with our deliberation and those members of the Parliament who engaged and lodged amendments at stage 2.

Next week, we will continue to take evidence on the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill. We have outside visits this Thursday night and Friday night as part of that work.

That concludes our meeting.

The question is, that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.