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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 17 October 2025
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Displaying 6264 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

First, Mark, I will just point out that we are less than a third of the way through the questions but three quarters of the way through the time. That always happens when we have interesting panels. Panelists, I ask you to be mindful that the longer you speak, the more you ensure that no one else can speak and the less chance we have to get through all the questions. You are the ones who will have to face your colleagues after this, and I will have to face committee members, so, please, keep your answers short and concise.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Thanks, Shivali, that would be helpful.

Right, I will try to move things along quite quickly. We have heard from various witnesses on whether the defence of necessity is required. My question requires a simple yes or no answer from each of you. Is the defence of necessity required? Jamie?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Shivali Fifield had her hand up.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Just before we move on, I think that the deputy convener wants to come in on that particular point.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Just before we go back to the questioning, I think that history has proven that, if somebody knows that they are doing something wrong, defending themselves by saying that they were only following orders has never been acceptable. You seem to be suggesting that it might be acceptable. My view is that that surely cannot be the case. If someone knows that they are doing wrong, they are doing wrong and they should not do it.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Thank you, Sarah—there is nothing like being told what to do as convener by a committee member. I might refer to those later questions that you wanted to ask. [Laughter.]

To make it clear, when I talked about a river earlier, I was not referring to the River Spey. If I had been, I would have had to declare an interest. In case anyone thinks that I was, I declare that I have an interest in the River Spey.

Let us move on to penalties. The penalties are 20 years in prison and an unlimited fine. That is massive. Is that required—yes or no?

Jamie Whittle can go first.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

That is an interesting situation, because I do not think that doing something that you know is wrong is a defence for doing that act. History has proven that saying that you are following orders is not a good enough excuse for doing something wrong. I was not quite sure that I had followed the previous issue.

The deputy convener mentioned an unlimited fine and 20 years in the nick. An unlimited fine might mean nothing if you get a huge bonus, whereas a fine of £500 for somebody who has very little income, perhaps a crofter, might be massive and might be a death knell to their business, so I do not quite understand how that range works. One of the suggestions was to link fines to the turnover of the organisation. How do you feel about that? Scottish Water has a massive turnover and a massive amount of money, and it could pay a massive fine. A crofter on the west coast has very little turnover and should get only a very little fine. What do you think? Professor Parsons, do you want to refute that comment?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

That is an interesting idea—because it is a public sector organisation, it does not get a fine. I am sure that that is not quite how you would put it, but that is my interpretation.

Jonnie, what are your views on that?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

I call Sarah Boyack—but very briefly, please.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

It might then be a matter of who in the Government you would hold accountable.

Mark Ruskell may ask a supplementary question, if it could be a really quick one, please.