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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 November 2025
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Displaying 2754 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

Good morning, and welcome to the 17th meeting of the Education, Children and Young People Committee in 2025. This morning, we will continue to take evidence on the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill at Stage 1, with two panels of witnesses joining us.

I welcome the witnesses on the first panel: Sarah Collins, national officer for further education, Educational Institute of Scotland; Liam Davenport, industrial officer, Public and Commercial Services Union; Nicola Jackson, Unison steward, Skills Development Scotland; Mary Senior, Scotland official, University and College Union, Scotland; and John Lewis, Scottish Funding Council workplace representative at Unite the Union.

We have a lot to get through, but we are keen to hear your views and opinions. I will first ask the question that I have asked every panel so far during the scrutiny of the bill. What is the problem that the bill seeks to address and hopefully resolve, and does it do that, in your view and that of your organisation? Mr Lewis, because you are in my line of sight, I will start with you.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

From your submission, I take it that you feel that that has led to deficiencies within the bill and the financial memorandum. You state:

“Unite is not convinced that the Bill’s Financial Memorandum ... fully recognises or even understands the costs that might be associated with its successful implementation.”

The fact that you think that the Government does not understand the financial implications of the bill is quite a damning indictment of the process that the Government has gone through.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

If there was more of that, would that remove some of the need for the bill?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

Mr Davenport, did you find a reference to a “vacuum” in your submission?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

Yes. With regard to the costs of the proposed change, we have heard concerns, and we were written to again yesterday, by Martin Boyle from the SFC, complaining, or articulating, that the SFC has tried to engage with SDS on the funding and there has been a lack of engagement. Those concerns came through in the evidence session that we had with the SFC and SDS, and they were reiterated in that letter. Mr Davenport, do you think that the minister should step in to address that?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

Thank you. Let me delve into those issues a little. Ms Manson and Mr Campbell, you both spoke about apprenticeship numbers. Mr Campbell, you said that you are worried that the funding for apprenticeships could be diluted. We had reassurances—if you could even put it as strongly as that—from the Scottish Funding Council that there is nothing to worry about, that that will not happen and that it will continue to prioritise apprenticeships going forward. Are you reassured by those reassurances or are you worried about the lack of any evidence to support them? When we delved further into the issue, we got very warm words but nothing to substantially back them up.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

Is there a noticeable difference between the two? Are the independent, private providers more agile in changing to suit your needs, or can colleges do that just as effectively?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

The next item is consideration of two items of subordinate legislation. The first is the Teachers’ Pensions (Remediable Service) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2025. This Scottish statutory instrument is being considered under the negative procedure. Do members have any comments to make about the instrument?

As members have no comments, is the committee agreed that it does not wish to make any recommendations to the Parliament in relation to the instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

That concludes the public part of our proceedings. The committee will now move into private session to consider its final agenda items.

12:52 Meeting continued in private until 13:13.  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Douglas Ross

I will come to Mr Davenport in a moment, but just for clarity in my own mind, you are saying that since last July—or almost a year on—there has been no further engagement by the Minister for Higher and Further Education or his officials on the development of the bill and on how it will affect SDS staff.