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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 1189 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Environmental Fiscal Measures

Meeting date: 15 March 2022

Liz Smith

I very much agree with that. There are issues for consumers. There is no question that changing systems in houses will be extremely expensive for the families involved—that will cost thousands of pounds. That is a huge issue for an awful lot of families.

However, there is also an issue for the producers. At the moment, because of the situation in Ukraine, which is likely to be quite long term, there is an incentive for them to continue to use some of the energy systems that are less effective in tackling climate change. That is unfortunate, but that is the easiest way to ensure that we have an energy mix. Do you foresee that that will lead to a problem with driving incentives on the renewables side?

10:30  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Environmental Fiscal Measures

Meeting date: 15 March 2022

Liz Smith

Yes. It is a serious issue, and there is certainly not an answer just now. I think that it will be a long-term problem and that there will be an emphasis on using existing supplies of energy that are not particularly environmentally friendly for quite some time. European countries have already found that it is a bit of an issue because of the Ukraine crisis.

I want to ask about another aspect of your research. You talked about landfill tax being a relatively good tax, in that it has done what it was asked to do, is seen to be effective and has the public on board. Is it the case that what economists call marginal cost pricing—in other words, that is where you can see the extra cost of one more person using a service—is more effective in getting the public to change behaviour in the way that we want than something such as average cost pricing?

In your report, you cited a proposal by the John Muir Trust—I should declare an interest as a member of the trust. That is an important example of cross-subsidisation. That has its merit in totality, but it does not necessarily work for the people who have to pay the subsidy across to others. Is marginal cost pricing a better aspect of the fiscal levers that we need to apply?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Environmental Fiscal Measures

Meeting date: 15 March 2022

Liz Smith

The point relates to the dilemma that you mentioned earlier about getting people to respond well to paying taxes—well, nobody likes paying taxes, but it is about getting them to respond as well as they can. It is about behaviour change.

People are more likely to come with you if they understand, first, why a tax is necessary and, secondly, how much extra they will have to pay on the margin. Is that a better way of bringing people with you? After all, we need cultural change. I was a member of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee when that issue was discussed a couple of years ago, and it was very much our view that not much progress would be made unless there was buy-in from the public.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Environmental Fiscal Measures

Meeting date: 15 March 2022

Liz Smith

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Environmental Fiscal Measures

Meeting date: 15 March 2022

Liz Smith

Thank you for your presentation, which, as the convener said, was thought provoking. You mentioned that we are dealing with two crises: the biodiversity one and the climate change one. We now have a third crisis: Ukraine.

Notwithstanding the absolutely horrific scenes that we see on our television screens hour by hour, the crisis in Ukraine will have the effect of making us look long and hard at our longer-term energy mix. How significant is that for Governments in terms of their having to apply a more practical approach to achieving net zero? We would all like to drive towards net zero, but, as Germany has found out very quickly, that will not be quite so easily done to the original timescale, because of the practicalities of the situation. Do you think that that is very significant?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Liz Smith

Is there then a case for revising the Barnett formula?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Liz Smith

I very much agree with that. I raised the point because, as you said at the outset of your submission, if we are to improve the efficiency of public services, it is important that we are able to measure how well the money is being spent, and that is often quite far down the budget line.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Liz Smith

That is helpful. Let us take that down to the relationship between Scottish Government spend and local government spend, because the same argument that you have just enunciated for the UK and Scottish Governments applies to the Scottish Government and Scottish local authorities. Could something be done to increase transparency, particularly when it comes to budget line levels 3 and 4, about how well we spend money in local government, which is responsible for a huge number of public services?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Liz Smith

Yes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Liz Smith

I am sure that my colleague will come back on some of the details of this, but I am interested as to what the changes are in the economic determinants. It is quite a substantial figure.