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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
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Displaying 2215 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Over the parliamentary sessions, the number of MSPs who are MPs has tailed off, so we have a small number, and the number of MSPs who are also councillors has increased. I was a councillor, so that included me. In every election, quite a large number of the people who are elected to the Scottish Parliament are councillors at the time of election. Therefore, the minister’s point, namely that to do anything about councillors now would be wrong, is well made, so I do not intend to move amendment 3.

I heard what the minister said, I have seen his letter and I have reflected on what he said. I have also reflected on what he has said today, which is that he wants to launch a consultation in this parliamentary session. That is very useful. I am of the clear view that that is the right thing to do. To ban dual mandates for MSPs sitting as MPs—and in the House of Lords, although I will come on to talk about that—is the right thing to do. I think that it is what the public would expect us to do. I think that they expect people to behave in the right way, which means that, if you are elected to two places, you should make the choice between Westminster and here. Bringing that into law would bring us in line with Wales and Northern Ireland. Why should Scotland be an outrider?

I do not think that it is that complicated—it is quite an easy issue—but I accept that there ought to be some consultation. I think that I have the public pulse on the issue, but this bill might not be the place to do that. On that basis, I do not intend to move these amendments. I had intended to move them but, having heard from the minister earlier, I feel that, if he is going to move at pace with that consultation, I am happy not to do so. Unfortunately, that will take us into the next parliamentary session, which means that, if people who are MPs are elected to the Scottish Parliament in 2026, they will not have to resign. I am sure that we can all think of potential candidates. I will not name anyone, but I am sure that we have got people in mind. That would be unfortunate, but I accept what the minister is saying.

On the amendments that relate to the House of Lords, my amendment 2 would make provision that a member of the House of Lords could stand for election to the Scottish Parliament and that, if they were elected, they could either resign or take a leave of absence. That is what Katy Clark has done, and I think that she has done the right thing. My proposal would put that option in law. Because Ross Greer’s amendment goes further than that, I have to say that I disagree with him on this one. I think that we should allow the Katy Clark position to become a matter of law.

I leave it there, convener.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Auditor General, I apologise for being away for most of the meeting. As has probably been explained, I was moving some amendments to a bill at stage 2. Anyway, I am here now.

I want to ask about sponsorship arrangements. In your report, you note that the Government has

“implemented the recommendations set out in the independent review of its relationships with public bodies.”

We on the committee are all aware of the work that you have done on the Water Industry Commission for Scotland. Have you seen any evidence of the implementation of the recommendations following the independent review of the Government’s relationship with public bodies? Are those recommendations leading to any changes?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Can you name any of those bodies?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Over the parliamentary sessions, the number of MSPs who are MPs has tailed off, so we have a small number, and the number of MSPs who are also councillors has increased. I was a councillor, so that included me. In every election, quite a large number of the people who are elected to the Scottish Parliament are councillors at the time of election. Therefore, the minister’s point, namely that to do anything about councillors now would be wrong, is well made, so I do not intend to move amendment 3.

I heard what the minister said, I have seen his letter and I have reflected on what he said. I have also reflected on what he has said today, which is that he wants to launch a consultation in this parliamentary session. That is very useful. I am of the clear view that that is the right thing to do. To ban dual mandates for MSPs sitting as MPs—and in the House of Lords, although I will come on to talk about that—is the right thing to do. I think that it is what the public would expect us to do. I think that they expect people to behave in the right way, which means that, if you are elected to two places, you should make the choice between Westminster and here. Bringing that into law would bring us in line with Wales and Northern Ireland. Why should Scotland be an outrider?

I do not think that it is that complicated—it is quite an easy issue—but I accept that there ought to be some consultation. I think that I have the public pulse on the issue, but this bill might not be the place to do that. On that basis, I do not intend to move these amendments. I had intended to move them but, having heard from the minister earlier, I feel that, if he is going to move at pace with that consultation, I am happy not to do so. Unfortunately, that will take us into the next parliamentary session, which means that, if people who are MPs are elected to the Scottish Parliament in 2026, they will not have to resign. I am sure that we can all think of potential candidates. I will not name anyone, but I am sure that we have got people in mind. That would be unfortunate, but I accept what the minister is saying.

On the amendments that relate to the House of Lords, my amendment 2 would make provision that a member of the House of Lords could stand for election to the Scottish Parliament and that, if they were elected, they could either resign or take a leave of absence. That is what Katy Clark has done, and I think that she has done the right thing. My proposal would put that option in law. Because Ross Greer’s amendment goes further than that, I have to say that I disagree with him on this one. I think that we should allow the Katy Clark position to become a matter of law.

I leave it there, convener.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

I am listening very carefully to this, as I am a big fan of STV and have been a councillor who was elected under STV. If you are elected under STV—you can correct me if I have got you wrong—it means that people have had to vote for you individually, unlike those who are elected under the list system, which includes you and me. Nobody voted to get me, personally, into the Scottish Parliament, but people have to vote for individual councillors. If you want to get re-elected, you have to work your socks off and prove to people that you deserve their vote.

The STV system establishes a link between the electors and the individual, not the party, and that is similarly true in a by-election. By not having a by-election, you get rid of that and almost go back to the party list system, which puts the power into the hands of parties. That seems to me to be entirely wrong.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Thank you, convener. I will start by saying that the value of stage 2 is having the ability to raise issues such as the ones that my three amendments raise. The issues have not come out of the blue; they have come up before. Dual mandate was mentioned in the committee’s report, which was very good, and, when I spoke in the stage 1 debate, I was very honest—as I always am—in saying that there are different views on dual mandate, including in my party, but it is entirely right that we have a discussion about that.

If you will permit me, I have from the Scottish Parliament information centre a list of MSPs who have had dual mandate. The list is available to anyone. I am going to go through that list all the way from session 1, because people will find it interesting. It is quite a long list, and it is going to take me a bit of time, but I will read more quickly than I normally speak.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Will you take an intervention?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

I thank the minister for taking an intervention. As he said, we have discussed this matter, and he copied me into the letter that he sent to the committee. When might the minister launch a consultation on dual mandates, if he plans to do that?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Is there a danger that, with all these welcome consultations, it could look like the Government is trying to park issues and kick them into the long grass? I think that Ben Macpherson is right that, if the matters are not dealt with in the bill, we might need another bill in the next session of Parliament, and it could be many years before there is any action on the issues.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Graham Simpson

Have you seen that deep-dive exercise in any detail?